Not Getting Any?

Sometimes when you’re paging through, say, Cosmo, it can feel like everyone in the world—your friends, your neighbors, and, hell, even your second-grade teacher—has a sex life reminiscent of those hot, sweaty, twisted (in the best possible way) scenes in “Unfaithful.” However, acrobatic or even plain old vanilla sex isn’t happening for you tonight, or any other night for that matter. But everything around you—magazines, movies, those constant reruns of “Sex and the City” you always manage to stumble upon while channel-surfing alone on Friday night—seems to be conspiring to remind you of your sexless life, which is worse than a cult showing up with Kool-Aid.

But not to worry: the INCEL movement is here. INCEL (How has this phrase not been splashed across t-shirts sold at designer boutiques yet?) is short for “involuntary celibacy,” and, in short, means the state of not getting any for reasons other than, say, an actual vow of celibacy or commitment to abstinence. Or as WebMD puts it, “ordinary healthy folks who want to have sex but can’t make it happen in their lives.” (We’re not sure how comforting it is to know WebMD is weighing in on it at all, as if it’s diabetes or ulcers, but we appreciate the clarity.) INCELs are a demographic so rarely discussed that there are no statistics on their numbers. However, you should feel at ease knowing that if you lately often find yourself starring in your own rendition of “Sexless in Seattle” or “Home Alone: The On My Couch On a Saturday Night Without Even My Vibrator Edition,” fear not, you are not alone.

“While envied by their married counterparts, the stereotypical swinging single may not be having all kinds of marvelous sex with other single people,” says Gale Holtz Golden, a psychotherapist and author of “In the Grip of Desire: A Therapist at Work with Sexual Secrets.” “Instead, many single people characterize their sex lives as being voluntarily or involuntarily abstinent for a multitude of reasons.”

INCELs can have intimacy issues and other emotional problems, or they can also fall into the category of people who have had active sex lives in the past, but are unconsciously sabotaging themselves for emotional reasons. “People who choose, consciously or not, not to have sex for long periods of time could be avoiding intimacy because of fear,” says relationship coach Annie Ory. “This can be done by choosing partners to obsess over who are unavailable, married, or gay.” [Sirens note: Not a good idea.]

INCELs might also fall into the reluctant-virgin scenario. (Picture Steve Carrell in “The 40 Year Old Virgin.”) “Virginity is coming back in fashion, and it’s certainly nothing to be ashamed of,” Golden says. “However, if you are waiting for Mr. Perfect you may wait a long time because no such person exists. Finding the right guy may be a matter of the numbers game. Once you get used to kissing frogs and one turns into a Prince, you may like kissing and the rest will follow.”

Changing your viewpoint about sex could be the key if you are apprehensive about having been in a sexless rut for a while and feel as if you don’t know where on earth to start. You should first get a physical/pelvic examination and tell your doctor you are there because you have some specific concerns about sexual encounters. If this does not put your mind to rest, you should see a therapist who specializes in sexual issues to examine this fear, Golden advises. Or you could be suffering from depression, says a 2001 study in the Journal of Sex Research that found links between lack of sex and depression.

That means that, yes, even the dismal state of our economy has an impact on our sex lives. If you have recently been laid off or are worried about the possibility of losing your job, then your sex life has probably taken a back seat to your worry-riddled mind. Who has time to seek out partners when finding a job is hard enough? No job equals no money, which makes us worried about keeping a roof over our heads instead of hitting the silk sheets. “Stress is always a sex-killer,” Golden says. “If you have a crazy, overwhelming life, you have to stop and smell the flowers—or each other.”

But even voluntary abstinence can morph into the involuntary kind: Vanessa, 35, decided to give up sex cold turkey after a rough breakup following a relationship that spanned most of her twenties. “It was literally almost a year before I felt ready to approach the idea of dating, let alone sex,” she says. “I tried online dating but it didn’t result in any significant hook-ups, which resulted in my period of forced celibacy. I never intended to be on a hiatus, but it just worked out that way.” She found solace in ThatHappenedtome.com for all women who found their life and lifestyle grinding to a halt because of an unexpected breakup. The trauma can cause many aspects of life to be thrown into upheaval, and intimacy issues are a large part of that.

INCEL support groups are everywhere—from MySpace to YouTube. Just when you think you are alone out there, type INCEL into any search engine and a variety of support groups come up. On Incel.myonlineplace.org, you can scroll through INCEL info on topics such as being a gay INCEL as well as message boards, which give specific advice on how to approach people if you are chronically shy. On the Yahoo INCEL Support Bulletin, there is even a motto for people living with celibacy: S.H.I.T. (So Horny It’s Torture).

In the interim, what on earth are INCELS to do? “Exercise has a lot in common with sex and is a healthy way to reap the same benefit,” says author of “Addicted to Stress” Debbie Mandel. “Also creativity and productivity are excellent ways to channel sexual energy. Massage therapy is another healthy alternative.”

And don’t beat yourself up for missing sex—it is important. “If you look at it from the hierarchy of needs perspective, sex is a basic human drive like the drive for food and water, and if these basic needs aren’t met, then it may keep you from being a fully self-actualized human being,” says psychotherapist Dr. Michael DeMarco. “I would encourage anyone who is abstaining from sex with another person to continue being able to get that need met through masturbation.” Or you can even romance yourself in other ways. “Doing things like treating yourself to flowers, sexy lingerie, or a nice dinner with a good friend will make life seem better when you are between relationships,” Golden says.

But as good as sex can be for you, it’s also important to remember that going without it for a while is not even close to as bad as going without food or shelter. In fact, while sex has plenty of nice side effects, skipping it for a while does no harm. “So far, I haven’t shriveled up and died, nor have I thought of myself as any less appealing to the opposite sex,” Vanessa says.

“We are programmed through movies and magazines that if we are single, then there is something missing, when I would argue that there is absolutely nothing wrong with being single,” DeMaro says. “And if abstaining from sex makes it easier to stay single without possibly complicating things, by all means, abstain!”

So the next time you find yourself in an INCEL-rific situation, just ride it out (so to speak). “Afterall, one can still have a romance with life,” Mandel says. Or, to use the favorite motto of many a sexless website: NO SEX, SO WHAT?

– Stacy Horowitz


Comments

  1. john smith says:

    Been incel since the end of Reagan’s 2nd term. Is 1000 times worse than anything you’ve said. Will most likely die in the next few years, and I should. Living like this is not life worthwhile.

  2. rocky shore says:

    “So the next time you find yourself in an INCEL-rific situation, just ride it out…”

    Thanks for that sage advice Barbie. I’ve been ‘riding it out’ for 30 years now.

    Do the world a favor. Stop blogging.

  3. bomazo says:

    Seriously bad article and typically written by a feminist (who cleary doesn’t need).

    Involuntary celibacy happens to people who can’t get laid and changing your perspective doesn’t help your body automatically sends signals of sexual frustration which turn off potential sex partners even for women. People don’t like desperation even people who are sexually frustrated are put off by other sexually frustrated people its the bodies biological response to ensure they get the best mate.

    You are talking about involuntary celibacy as a choice as in you can have sex but don’t want to. That’s celibacy. Involuntary celibacy means YOU CANT HAVE SEX because no one wants to do it with you period and that sucks. FLOWERS WONT FIX THAT MAJOR PROBLEM get a grip and stop blogging nonsense seriously when it comes to one area where feminism clearly sucks its sex and sexuality and the problems associated with it, not everyone thinks like lesbians ok many ppl need sex and riding it out wont solve the problem its like trying to ride out clamidia? no! you have to cure it.

    • Rob says:

      “Involuntary celibacy means YOU CANT HAVE SEX because no one wants to do it with you period and that sucks”
      This is right on. As a husband who’s wife hasn’t wanted to even touch me in 5 years, this is an agonizing and emotionally crippling situation to be in. Masturbation isn’t the same as having a deep connection to a partner that you love, both emotionally or physically. I had high hopes coming into this article, realizing that there were others like me. Too bad that the article was written by someone who isn’t. :(

      • Heather Wood Rudúlph says:

        Rob, thank you for reaching out and writing. We cover topics that we know people want/need to read about even if we aren’t personally experiencing it ourselves. There is a community out there of people going through what you’re going through and hope that our little article that sheds light on it can help start a discourse. The fact that you had the courage to comment here and share a bit of your story is a giant step in that direction.

  4. Rick says:

    Hi!

    Rob and Bomazo nailed it! We are perfectly capable of engaging in a satisfying sex life but we don’t have a partner who is willing to participate. I believe the logical solution is to go see the “ist” and get help. When your partner isn’t interested in fixing the problem, then there are only three solutions: live with the unsatisfactory life, say goodbye, or develop a sex life outside of the relationship……………none of them are good solutions!

    I don’t see myself as an “incel” but rather as living a life of forced celibacy. We have rules about forcing sex……….we call it “rape” and you can’t do that! I think it’s time we had a rule for forced celibacy too………….it’s just not right to force someone against their will to live a celibate life.

    I don’t know what to do about my situation. The last time I had sex was the last Friday in February of 2002, and that was one of those, “Well, if you really have to, go ahead; but get it over with quickly” events. I have thought about this a lot and I think if one person is going to deny the application of the “to have and to hold” clause then the “forsake all others” clause should automatically become null and void. I don’t want to “stray” but I think it’s time to start looking for a “friend with benefits.”

    • Rob says:

      That is a very interesting perspective Rick. I wonder how many times this same internal conversation has played out with different people in our same situations. I know that I wouldn’t be able to carry things to the “friends with benefits” stage, but I can certainly see how someone gets there from where we are.

  5. bomazo says:

    Totally understand what you both mean Ive had a few girlfriends who’ve made it their lives’ goal to keep me as a sexless boyfriend. Whats the point of dating someone you and loving them if you cant have sex with them. Its clearly a power game ( getting off on some twisted moral high ground) its not like these girls haven’t been laid before. Im lucky i can dump them easily unlike a marriage but i do feel like im being used for something as almost a downtime boyfriend they simply use me till they can find someone else so im stuck single to this day.

    Im very open to sex right now and have been for nearly 8 years since the last time someone wanted me. Like i said before the dynamics are far more complicated for someone suffering incel. It physically shows and people know it. Many guys and girls i listen to simply don’t understand what incel means, there is no choice in being incel its solely that nobody will sleep with you that’s all it has nothing to do with choices.

    And sadly being an incel means that if any women offers me sex and intimacy i will accept regardless I long to be wanted. Im not interested in friendship and what “women have to offer” in fact im fed up with it thats all i ever get these days talk talk talk.

    i want a woman to want me for my body or/as well for a change i think everyone derserves it and its not evil or wrong to want it, but its almost a crime to even say that these days.

    i’d go as far to say that it doesn’t matter what the woman looks like, age (above the legal limit ofc and i dont care if she’s 50 etc) and what she is like, for me at this stage its the biggest turn on that she wants me and is happy to be intimate with me, more than anything else. i am totally sex starved.

    Any body “claiming” to be an incel its a simple question can you get sex normally? not can you get sex from the “right” person. If yes then you are not an incel period (marriage and religious beliefs are exceptions). As for prostitution forget it, its illegal and dangerous YES even for johns, using a prostitute and picking someone from a bar is totally different so don’t ever compare the two.

    Rick and Rob i totally feel what you say and the fact that marriage can sometimes turn against you and trap you this way is also horrible since you have made vows incel in a marriage is a bad case scenario indeed but there is no other option than to break them, if you have the option to have sex outside marriage.

    marriage is a two way street if your spouse doesn’t play fair why should you. Honestly a divorce is the best, its like domestic violence is this person in love with you or are they in love with the power? that’s the question and if its been going on for so long then its probably the power. Also married men do have far more options to have sex statistically so “friends with benefits” sounds good.

    But its great hearing there are other people like me and sharing their own ideas and experiences thanks rob and rick.

  6. bomazo says:

    And Heather next time it would be wise for the writers to read up on the topic your site is covering not blog to suit their agenda (i can go without sex look how ‘mature’ i am) for a round of mental masturbation.

    (“Dr. Michael DeMarco. “I would encourage anyone who is abstaining from sex with another person to continue being able to get that need met through masturbation.” Or you can even romance yourself in other ways. “”)

    (“However, if you are waiting for Mr. Perfect you may wait a long time because no such person exists. Finding the right guy may be a matter of the numbers game. Once you get used to kissing frogs and one turns into a Prince, you may like kissing and the rest will follow.”)

    This is fucking nonsense. This has nothing to do with incel. This is celibacy and the attitudes that come with it.

  7. Zachary says:

    First I have to say I’m sorry for how long this turned out to be, but I think it all rwally did need to be said. I would greatly appreciate it if people would read it anyway.

    I agree that this article is badly written. I also agree with most of what Rick and Rob say, and I thought Bomazo’s first post had some good points, but it went downhill starting with the middle of Rick’s post and really landed at the bottom with Bomazo’s second post.

    Look, I’ll admit I’m a younger person than probably all of you , in my early twenties, but I am incel (and don’t disagree with me on that point; it’s bad enough having professionals not look into the condition, don’t add bigotry to the group who have it) and I have been incel since I could reasonably be considered sexually mature (say mid teens) although I was actually interested in girls non sexually since many, many years before that.

    First point: About incel being purely about whether you can get sex. Half right. Not being able to get sex is a required symptom of incel, but I’m sorry I can’t agree with you if you say sex is the only factor. I think it’s more like “involuntary lack of intimacy” which includes sexual and emotional connections. Personally I am not interested in one night stands, so I don’t go looking for them. I crave a serious relationship of some sort. Obviously waiting till marriage is an absurd idea but I wouldn’t want to engage in sexual intercourse with anyone until I was in a relationship with them. And I wouldn’t want to enter a relationship with them unless I was friends with them as well as romantically connected- ideally a romantic partner would be your best friend as well. I am unable to find any sort of reciprocity from members of the opposite sex when I make romantic overtures. I do NOT make such advances upon first meeting, nor if they are even considered acquaintances, although I will admit I may be attracted to some of them upon first meeting. I’ve asked out about a dozen people in person (and perhaps half that online, although well over a dozen conversations on dating sites fizzled before that point) the past four years or so, around when I was 17 when I first decided to start focusing on that more.I still keep standards of what I consider attractive both sexually and personality wise, and I do not strive to go below them. Obviously the rate is slowed because as I said I don’t look for non-serious relationships and I don’t look for sex outside of that. Clearly it is a numbers game.

    That said, the most important part of involuntary celibacy is, and I can’t emphasize this enough, THE NEGATIVE EMOTIONAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECTS CAUSED BY IT. As far as I can tell (and you can’t objectively say otherwise) I am in EXACTLY the same beat-up emotional state as someone who has suffered it for two or three decades. Yes, they’ve suffered longer and my heart goes out for them, and no, it doesn’t get easier over time, but that does NOTHING to cheapen my own issues. Perhaps I am making choices that hinder my ability to get sex; that’s certainly possible with the data I gave you. Still, I WANT a relationship (more than anything!) and I WANT to have sex and (this is important) I have been actively looking for ways to achieve these goals, and I have NEVER been successful, which DOES affect my mental state.Finally, I keep standards as I said, and if I was asked out by someone I didn’t feel met them I WOULD turn them down (this is theoretical; it has never happened) and I would consider myself still involuntary celibate! I do NOT automatically equate being incel with being desperate (and think no one should have to sacrifice their standards) even if it can be the case, nor do I equate it with having to accept all proposals to maintain diagnosis (not that we get any diagnosis…) because despite my clear continued sense of self-worth and standards I still lack self-confidence in this arena (romance and sex), I still mentally question myself about it all the time, and I still am clinically depressed (and that is confirmed). Also, to me the only way to get out of involuntary celibacy or whatever I would call it is a deep, meaningful relationship and I’m sorry but that simply isn’t possible by settling for someone I don’t consider attractive (I don’t have unreasonable standards either; as far as I can tell they’re about average, with some deal breakers and clear preferences but leeway given in several areas because I realize no one is perfect) so accepting these solicitations would not actually help my condition, as I would not have confidence in said relationship where I settle lasting. At all. And then you’re back to square one.

    In the end I think one of the main reasons there is so little empirical data and research on involuntary celibacy is because it’s really very hard to know where to begin. There are so many possible factors into what cause incel and it’s unlikely everyone shares all of them (or even has all of them, I think). The wikipea article alone lists well over a dozen possible causes and there very well might be others not listed on it. Generally a diagnosis of an official ailment has several different symptoms and you only need a certain number of them to be diagnosed. With incel no one, professional or sufferer, can agree on the exact symptoms OR on the cause (and it is very possible there could be more than one cause for different people) making it all a tangled mess. Add to that the media saturation of romanctic couples with very few examples of what people consider incel (and even then usually played for laughs) to the fact that it’s a rather private subject and not everyone is willing to talk about it with everyone else (that they know personally) AND to the cultural belief that everyone will find someone if they look AND (yeah, there are a lot of factors here…) society’s attitudes on sex (many places one simply doesn’t talk about it and of course in certain religions and cultures people have very conservative attitudes about it) is there really ANY wonder about how some people don’t think it exists or (like this article) misunderstand or downplay it? Obviously this isn’t good, but it makes sense when you consider all of the (rather large) contributing factors. And when people have a hard time believing in it or don’t realize the implications of it, that makes it shelved on the list of sexologists’s things to look into.

    Finally, on a separate note, I agree that no one deserves to be sexless throughout their life. I know what it’s like and it’s horrible. However, no one (including your spouse in my opinion, although I admit Ia m obviously not experienced in this regard) is obligated to give you sex. This is something said to feelings of sexual entitlement all the time and it is absolutely true. No one “owes” you (or I!) anything they do not choose to give freely of their own accord. Thinking otherwise is simply arrogant and I’m certain would not endear you to potential sexual partners either.So yes, there is luck involved and there needs to be compatibility, and that make sit harder for everyone. The fact that it makes it harder does not make it morally or societally wrong. And I absolutely do not approve of affairs (unless extramarital sex is allowed BY the partner in which case it is not an affair anyway in my opinion). I do agree that if your wife is not having sex with you for as long a stretch a time and making no effort to help you, as Rob’s situation seems to be, action probably should be taken, but not through an affair. If talking to them does not work and it is that important to you (and for many I assume it is; it would be to me) then file for a divorce. Even if it is true that they are not fulfilling their vows that does not give you the right to lower yourself and not fulfill them either.

    Once again, I apologize for the huge post, but I felt it was all important and I don’t like leaving things have-said (obviously). Yes, this is how I type a lot of the time. No, this is not (usually) how I talk.

  8. bomazo says:

    You clearly are overcomplicating what incel is, it is about sex and initmacy yes, but sex is a necessity for initmacy as defined here. Intimacy cannot happen without sex period within incel.
    Can you still be an incel when you get sex? absolutely not. Lacking of a emotion connection is called “involuntary emotional celebacy” ok thats where you fit in zachary please don’t confuse the two, the next stage should you solve it would be “involuntary celebacy” but hopefully you will have sex by the time you make a emotional connection with whoever. For example a mistress can suffer “involuntary emotional celebacy” because while she may sleep with someones husband but he is emotionally celibate towards her because he is strongly connected to his wife and the mistress cannot get any emotional connection from anyone else either. Two celibrates may have an strong emotional connection and choose not to have sex that makes them celibrates but they choose to remove physical initmacy.

    “However, no one (including your spouse in my opinion, although I admit Ia m obviously not experienced in this regard) is obligated to give you sex.”

    This attitude is such nonsense it actually infuriates me, this is the reason why marriages and relationships fail. While you are correct nobody should have sex if they don’t want to, THEY SHOULDN’T BE in a relationship with someone who wants a sexual relationship let alone marry someone like that and “change their mind” thats called being controlling at the begining of a relationship after a few dates and getting to know the person have the balls to say you want it to be sexless some people here have been tricked into believing that their spouses wanted them for years and made to feel like its their fault for wanting something that is perfectly normal and natural in a relationship.

    “And I absolutely do not approve of affairs (unless extramarital sex is allowed BY the partner in which case it is not an affair anyway in my opinion). ”

    You are such a hypocrite by your moronic logic no one owes you any form of fidelity either so its irrelevant to disapprove of cheating when you approve of control. You seem to add morality whenever it suits you which is pathetic really just because it happens to fit your needs.

    If a spouse doesn’t obligate to sex why should the other spouse obligate to fidelity? marriage is a two way street don’t marry someone who you won’t sleep with who whats to sleep with you this is a form of control its not morally right, neither is cheating, people like that are as bad as each other both are selfish controlling bastards who are hurting their partners srsly fuck political correctness,

    Technically i have the right to sleep with anybody i want whether im in a relationship or not and they have the right to refuse sex whether they are in a relationship or not, neither the person who withholds sex or the person who cheats better than each other.

    I do agree divorce is the best option but cheating is another option too when the partner is witholding sex (which is another form of cheating in a relationship), specially since the creation of no-fault divorces can mess up peoples finaces also if there are kids involved its a very bad idea to divorce specially young kids. Your not experianced enough to know that in long term marriages divorces are incredibaly messy and hurt many people not just the two people divorcing, if you know anyone divorced like this you would understand.

    You also sound like a virgin someone who probably looking for the “right” one. Once you do have sex if you already havent and many more longer relationships even marriage your attitude may change it may not.

    But your definition is completely wrong Involuntary celibacy means unable to get sex. The problems you have are deeper in the emotional realm than the physical,

    “As far as I can tell (and you can’t objectively say otherwise) I am in EXACTLY the same beat-up emotional state as someone who has suffered it for two or three decades. Yes, they’ve suffered longer and my heart goes out for them, and no, it doesn’t get easier over time, but that does NOTHING to cheapen my own issues.”

    Honestly this is sheer arrogance we don’t know how badly each sufferer is and we can’t compare and say my 3 days was just as bad as your 30 years. Since different people deal with it differently.

    All i can say in my experiance is that it will only get worst with age trust me. You have no idea yet. I feel for you but if this keeps up as you described 10 years from now you may well think this post you wrote was bullshit or maybe not i really don’t know. However i will extend you my sympathy what your going thru sounds incredibly tough, but it just doesn’t quite seem to be incel. your expanding incel to add on “involuntary emotional celibacy” which seems to be your main problem here.

    Besides you do seem to desire a emotional connection before a physical one therefore you are a celibate by definiton im afraid and you reason for celibacy is “involunatry emotional celibacy”. It will be interesting to see hopefully you do get an emotional connection whether or not you were actually an incel all along.

    I’ll have to agree to disagree on your statements regarding incel.

    On a sour note your ideas were very judgemental and frustrating to read and i decided to reply to you in kind, perhaps you should get off your high horse maybe if you emotionally connect with a girl you can with-hold sex from her and give this “pc” speech about nobody owes you sex blah blah see how she reacts, maybe im wrong but you give off that vibe, honestly you are no morally better than me or anyone here you just seem to talk like you are, a one night stand is not for everybody but even deep emotional relationships can be incredibly shallow, and about you i could be wrong here what say you?

  9. Zachary says:

    Ah…okay. I’ll reply to your post starting from the beginning.

    Firstly, perhaps that IS “involuntary emotional celibacy”. I’ll be straight with you: I’ve never heard of that term before now. That said, I think it’s silly to separate involuntary emotional celibacy and involuntary sexual celibacy, as the two do seem to have a direct link and I would argue they go together anyway. And I don’t see why emotional celibacy would be an “earlier stage” type thing, as it makes more sense to me that it’s actually a bigger deal. Sex is important- I freely admit that, obviously- and it does have direct health benefits and is important in a healthy relationship. But that last part is the key. It’s important for a HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP. Sex supplements emotion. Both of them are very important, but would you rather get lots of sex with no connection or have a deep romantic connection with someone with no sex (let’s not argue about whether or not that’s possible, and indeed probably it isn’t; the point is which would be worse). I’d argue that I’d rather have a deep relationship with no sex than lots of sex and no emotional attachment. This does NOT diminish the importance of involuntarily sexual celibacy. It simply means they go together (since you can’t have a good relationship without sex) and that EMOTIONS ARE A REALLY BIG DEAL I don’t think that last part is surprising to anyone.

    On marriage and sex and affairs: I actually AGREE with you that A. both partners should be supportive of one another, including in sex and B. You probably shouldn’t be in a lasting relationship like that if you don’t want sex. So I’ll concede that point because it makes sense. However, regarding affairs I don’t see why it’s okay to break your own vows just because they broke theirs. Has no one every heard of taking the high road/moral high ground? Perhaps not having extramarital sex unless given permission is unreasonable, as it does indeed come about to a control issue, but that doesn’t mean extramarital affairs are okay. At least revel in the fact that you’re NOT BREAKING YOUR WORD LIKE THEY DID. In this instance divorce is clearly the best option. And yes, I have met people who have gone through divorces, although admittedly they have been amicable, so indeed maybe I do need perspective. I do realize however the legal difficulties. I don’t find out everything I know simply through personal relations; I research things and I have seen many horrifying anecdotal stories of people who have been through terrible divorces and my heart goes to them. I NEVER thought divorce was easy for ANYONE. That does not change the fact that it IS the best solution (also, please do not argue to me about kids- yes, they are clearly majorly affected, but they are not the actual divorcees and if in a house with two married parents who don’t love one another- which is a dynamic that affects their everyday attitudes including interactions with the child- I’d rather that child be in two homes with loving parents that went through divorce anyway).

    I do not see how what I said before (or now, if you go there) makes me hypocritical. I said an affair is not actually so when permission is given. In my view affairs are by nature illicit and therefore you are doing nothing wrong if you are not deceiving anyone (the main problem of affairs) and no one has a problem the it. At that point is is simply not monogamy, but it isn’t wrong (note I am not saying I am not monogamous- I am and I would not do this- but that doesn’t mean it can’t be true for others and I do not think they’re wrong, and no that’s not being politically correct, I honestly think it should be a matter of preference). I don’t add morality wherever it suits me- although I do have an original code of ethics I follow and some of it isn’t mainstream at all, but that mostly has to do with violence and not this- and I do not see how my logic is flawed based on what I have said. Please refrain from saying so unless you can give a clear reason why. As I mentioned before I was thinking about keeping moral high ground in the situation illustrated. On the subject of moral high ground, I have NOT said that I am more moral or ethical or whatever than you or anyone else, nor did I imply it, so please do not say otherwise. I will admit that I find being ethical to be the most important thing period and one should not sacrifice one’s ethics for ANY reason…no exceptions. Yes, I am an idealist and yes I do actually strive to make my ideal reality. No, that doesn’t make me naive; I know what the world is like and I know what I personally am like. That doesn’t change my goals in the slightest though, it just adds new things to take into account. Okay maybe this last part has sounded a bit holier than thou, and I will agree to that if you say so and I apologize, although I think it still should be kept.

    Yes, I am a virgin and yes, I do look for a partner that would work, although I will admit that there’s more than one good partner (and like I said I have asked out many people) and I will admit that things rarely go as planned and are never perfect. I do say that I’m more like Tesla than Edison in this regard. Edison said things like “If I fail 50,000 times at least I know 50,000 things that don’t work.” and Tesla responded similarly “If Mr. Edison did what he wanted to right the first time he would get a lot more done.” That’s a paraphrase but clearly illustrates the point. So, yeah, in my view if I can get a first relationship that works beautifully it IS better than trying a failing and trying again. Clearly so. Maybe I wouldn’t learn from mistakes, but I’d rather not make them in the first place so I don’t have to learn them. This is entirely off-topic though, and my point is made, so I will move on. I doubt my attitude will change though with further experience.

    I will concede the point that I do not know how much others suffer just as they don’t know how much I suffer. I DO know that I suffer a lot. Yes, people deal with things differently, and that certainly is a factor.

    Yes, I desire an emotional connection before a physical one and hold off on the physical connection. But one of the (many) reasons I want a relationship IS for sex, and I do want sex and actively strive for a relationship at least partly because of this, and I still do not get sex. As it is, I do not have sex and suffer from the same issues as other people with involuntary sexual celibacy, namely the sexual frustrations and the fact that I have missed and continue to miss general milestone moments in my sexual development as I have not had sex. I don’t think I tack on involuntary emotional celibacy anyway. The two are two sides of the same coin and ultimately both issues complement one another (I still think emotional celibacy is worse, although I will concede only that they are perhaps on equal footing especially since it’s hard to have one without the other, but will NOT concede that sexual celibacy is worse).

    Perhaps, as you said, I deal with this differently. I do NOT deny that suffering won’t get better with longer time spent, and it may well get worse, but based on what I KNOW, it might just be the same, only longer. Someone might suffer longer, but do they suffer more strongly? I don’t know. I admit that. I personally think that it will not get less bearable (if only because it’s already pretty unbearable).Perhaps, as you said, I will look back upon this in 10 years and think it was stupid to say this (but ONLY this part, not the rest).

    Finally, as said before I do not strive solely to be politically correct, or strive for that at all, really. I generally think political correctness has good intentions but goes overboard with the labeling (which I take major issue with) and because of this the original intentions of equal treatment have been lost in the shuffle. For example, I find affirmative action quotas in public universities to be silly, not because people with low incomes or minority status shouldn’t go to them, but because it makes far more sense to me to have it be a complete meritocracy- although yes, disadvantages would be taken into account, but not because they are a minority or whatever but because you should strive to view them with the potential they would have without them, and in the end if they are not deserving upon assessment they simply shouldn’t get in. I guess in the end I’d prefer to acknowledge different cultural origins (because they do matter) but refuse to let it weigh in on decisions and ABSOLUTELY stop giving everyone so many labels. Once again this is off-topic and I apologize.

    I will say I would NOT withhold sex or try to be controlling of a spouse or other romantic partner, and feel that there should be a completely equal playing field with give and take on both sides (and as close to the same amount as possible). That said I freely acknowledge that nobody is obligated to get to that point with me. At all. I certainly am VERY frustrated with my lack of a relationship of any sort (well, in terms of romance, but you get the idea) and my seeming inability to get out of that, but if someone isn’t attracted to me I know there’s nothing I can do about it. I can TRY to change their mind or level of attraction (and I have tried in a few cases), but there’s no guarantee whatsoever of success and if I am not successful then so be it. And you saw before when I was speaking about affairs and ethics that I think some obligations are important, so realize that I do not take this lightly.

    And perhaps my views are judgmental, but I do have personal experience in the matter (which by the way should NOT be a requirement to understand it, regardless of the fact that I do have it), as well as do the reading, talking and general living to say that I feel I can back myself up.o, I’m clearly not an expert, but I’m not ignorant either. I’m sorry if anything I say rubs you the wrong way, but quite frankly a decent amount of what you say does that to me.

    One final note, and it really is entirely off-topic, but please don’t say you agree to disagree. While I realize different opinions can both be right, it leaves a bad taste in my my mouth when people do that. It basically means “You’re wrong but I’ll let it be.” But if you think someone wrong, isn’t it obligation on your part to help them realize it? Letting someone continue to be wrong is neglectful on your part and in itself ethically unsound. If both parties see each other as wrong they should both do their best to make the other side realize it. If both of them end up being right in different ways, so be it. If each party was right on some points and wrong on others, then so be it. If one party is entirely right and the other concedes, then so be it. If they were both entirely wrong at the beginning and realize it, then so be it. But if you honestly believe someone to actually be incorrect on something (whether it’s important or not) it is your DUTY to try to amend this, and if you begin such an attempt on someone to explain to them (which will possibly make them consider YOU wrong) then it is THEIR duty to do the same, and it is actually morally dubious to quit trying, however long it takes until a solution is reached. Like I said, my views on ethics and morals are often enough far from mainstream. If you wanted to see all of them you’d probably batter me over the head for some things after you had done so. The point is unless it IS entirely subjective, it is logically impossible for two opposing viewpoints to both be right (and this is coming from someone who thinks it is possible to be objective about EVERYTHING and have EVERYTHING have an objective answer- at least in theory, still a long way from making it work that way even for myself). In case you’re going to say anything about this is why I don’t have relationships (har har), most people- aside from the odd internet conversation- don’t know about this stuff until they know me a good deal, for I hope self-evident reasons.

    And if you think my ideas on agreeing to disagree are wrong, make sure I realize it if it’s the case (I would wink here if I could).

  10. bomazo says:

    “Both of them are very important, but would you rather get lots of sex with no connection or have a deep romantic connection with someone with no sex (let’s not argue about whether or not that’s possible, and indeed probably it isn’t; the point is which would be worse). I’d argue that I’d rather have a deep relationship with no sex than lots of sex and no emotional attachment. This does NOT diminish the importance of involuntarily sexual celibacy. It simply means they go together (since you can’t have a good relationship without sex) and that EMOTIONS ARE A REALLY BIG DEAL I don’t think that last part is surprising to anyone.”

    Its the persons prefrace honestly im old enough now to not be looking for the “one”. So I would get lots of sex than have a deep romatic connection with someone with no sex, because i can get that with my female friends where as you can’t which i believe is what makes us different. Im not an “involuntary emotional celibate” i have females friends who love me who care for me and i love them back these people won’t sleep with me but thats why there are friends. However neither will anyone else. For me it is impossible to have a deep relatioship with no sex sorry thats what seprates it from a close friendship.

    Sex is about giving complete trust an connecting on a level beyond mental to physical. Sex on its own for me is just as good I can have a friend with benefits with no problems providing she doesn’t have any problems with it. I can get my romance from other friends with no sex if i choose to.

    Zachary Is it possible to get what you want? very likely but like i said nobody will disagree that just because emotions are a really big deal sex but they are not linked sex is the gateway for me not the otherway around and im emotionally very happy thanks to friends. But i want more than just a woman to gaze into my eyes and be interesting in me my inner thoughts etc i want a woman to share a physical bond with me which is not happening at the moment.

    So the question is would i want sex if i didnt have emotion connections with my friends before? the answer is yes absolutely my first sexual experiance was a very positive affair before i had any female friends it was raw and passionete untill she after a few months she decided to move on and we stayed friends which i had no problems with. Sex in relationships were good also but honestly i can’t make the connection you do which says romance is a necessity to sex. Sex for me is an important part of life as anything else on its own merit. And like i said im desperate for sex lol.

    “That said, I think it’s silly to separate involuntary emotional celibacy and involuntary sexual celibacy, as the two do seem to have a direct link and I would argue they go together anyway.”

    Its silly to you but you are a celibrate im afraid. Ill explain why. You are basically attaching something to avoid sex a reason. Your reason is emotional connection pre-requisite. Other peoples reasons are marriage, religion etc. These people are celibrates too like you. Some people wait for marriage before sex if they can’t get marriage they won’t have sex. They link the two like you have done and concede im an involuntary celebrate because i wont have sex b4 marriage and i CAN’T get married. Im afraid it doesn’t work that way. You decision to not have sex is YOUR CHOICE. An involuntary celebrate is the next stage when you do want to have sex but you DON’T have that CHOICE. These are seperate and alot of incels would be pissed if you came up to them saying I get offered sex all the time but I havent found the “right one” so I guess im like one of you now…

    “One final note, and it really is entirely off-topic, but please don’t say you agree to disagree. While I realize different opinions can both be right, it leaves a bad taste in my my mouth when people do that. It basically means “You’re wrong but I’ll let it be.” But if you think someone wrong, isn’t it obligation on your part to help them realize it…?”

    Again im not obligated to do anything I don’t want to do right? Isn’t that what you believe in? Again all you do is fit moral codes that suit yourself “duty” “obligation” blah blah honestly zach i don’t give a shit if someone disagrees with me we leave it at that im not some zeolous preacher/teacher no does your moral code have any merit to me.

    I alreadly explained i think your totally wrong, but I don’t confess to know everything ultimately my belief on the matter is my opinion and we both disagree as far as im concerned you are a celibrate asyou CHOOSE to avoid sex before a “connection” I on the other hand am ready to have sex but simply cannnot find a dance partner who wants to with me therefore im a celibrate because im forced to be, “an incel”.

    Like i said zach i think once if you do get that emotion connection we will see if you were an incel.

    “(also, please do not argue to me about kids- yes, they are clearly majorly affected, but they are not the actual divorcees and if in a house with two married parents who don’t love one another- which is a dynamic that affects their everyday attitudes including interactions with the child- I’d rather that child be in two homes with loving parents that went through divorce anyway).”

    Nice try here zach but you do realise that often sexless couples can still be in love and still be great parents together. Or are you suddenly assuming that sex between two people is a necessity of love and family? Not every divorce happens because both partners are beating the shit out of each other ok? Many couples who have open marriages end up saving them. Its proven that couples that stay together are good for children in the longterm when they deal with relationships which is a big part of their lives. Whether you like it or not seperation only benefits divorce lawyers sometimes. Divorce isnt always the best option sorry. Just because some spouse doesn’t want to have sex with you doesn’t mean they would be angry if you had sex with someone else, if they do honestly they have serious controlling issues and wont get any sympathy from me ever.

    I can understand how you reached your conclusion but if you have been turning down sex because you can’t get an emotion connection you are not an incel. However if you get your emotional connection and still cant get sex since its now what you want, then you are an incel. Time will tell. Right now to me your are an “Involuntary Emotional Celibrate” no different to someone waiting for marriage before sex. Alot of people equate marriage as the most important thing two people can have and want to have sex with the “one” these people are also celibrates like you.

  11. bomazo says:

    “I do not see how what I said before (or now, if you go there) makes me hypocritical. I said an affair is not actually so when permission is given. In my view affairs are by nature illicit and therefore you are doing nothing wrong if you are not deceiving anyone (the main problem of affairs) and no one has a problem the it.”

    Because on one area you clearly stated that nobody OWES you sex yet in another you clearly stated people OWE you fidelity unless the said party agrees to infidelity.

    When you enter a marriage and with-hold sex you are decieving the other person. When you have an affair you are decieving the other person. Your rant about the rights of people owing you sex was absurd you got debunked. If you can’t see it whats the point of arguing it futher?

    “However, no one (including your spouse in my opinion, although I admit Ia m obviously not experienced in this regard) is obligated to give you sex. This is something said to feelings of sexual entitlement all the time and it is absolutely true. No one “owes” you (or I!) anything they do not choose to give freely of their own accord.”

    That was your statement. This is where the hypocrisy began.

    You stated “No one “owes” you (or I!) anything they do not choose to give freely of their own accord.”

    Then you went on to rant:-

    “But if you think someone wrong, isn’t it obligation on your part to help them realize it? Letting someone continue to be wrong is neglectful on your part and in itself ethically unsound. If both parties see each other as wrong they should both do their best to make the other side realize it. If both of them end up being right in different ways, so be it. If each party was right on some points and wrong on others, then so be it. If one party is entirely right and the other concedes, then so be it. If they were both entirely wrong at the beginning and realize it, then so be it. But if you honestly believe someone to actually be incorrect on something (whether it’s important or not) it is your DUTY to try to amend this, and if you begin such an attempt on someone to explain to them (which will possibly make them consider YOU wrong) then it is THEIR duty to do the same, and it is actually morally dubious to quit trying, however long it takes until a solution is reached.”

    So im really confused does your code of ethics change when it suits you? don’t bother just answering “no can’t see why it does” like last time.

  12. Zachary says:

    Okay, you’re taking things out of context. Stop that. Now.

    Firstly, like I said I might not be willing to have sex without emotional connection (romantic connection specifically) I STILL WANT sex and still am UNABLE TO GET IT. The reason why I do not get sex is inconsequential as long as I want it, actively strive for it (even if not directly) and can’t have it, even if it self-limiting. I am NOT avoiding sex; I see no reason to. Having a caveat is not avoidance especially when you are actively looking into fulfilling that caveat and as I said one of the reasons I want a relationship is for sex, which I DO want. And to clear up a statement you made early on which was an assumption and entirely incorrect, I have MANY female friends, but they are ONLY friends. I think a romantic partner SHOULD be friends AND with the ADDED aspect of romance. My best friend in the world is female, and I’m close to several others…just not romantically. A couple I actually do have feelings for and those feelings are not reciprocated. Also, I do not EVER get offers of sex. I have NEVER gotten an offer of sex for any reason, in terms of a long-term relationship or a one-night stand or anything in between. So don’t say I do (or even imply it, which is closer to what you actually did, but it was a clear implication). Yes, I did say I would turn down sex if it wasn’t in the context of a relationship, with that connection, and you were right to point that out. But A. That hasn’t happened and until it does it’s a moot point anyhow (if that ever actually happens this can be re-opened for debate if you wish- not that I believe I’ll be in contact with you) and B. I’m allowed to have standards regardless of my incelibacy, and I think it wrong to deny my right to them regardless of the situation. And do not question my ethical integrity. You may question whether the ethics are sound or worthwhile, but not the fact that I stick to them and don’t abuse them for personal reasons. That is the one thing not you nor anyone else can do and get away with. Ever. I sound angry, because I am. I do not tolerate that.You will notice I conceded a few points to you before. I actually did look to see if there was a suitable way to counter them and I admitted to myself that perhaps you were correct on them. I could have continued arguing about those by making things up, but I didn’t. So far I have no evidence that you are willing to do the same (of course, I freely admit it’s possible this is simply because you have not been convinced of a single thing I’ve said, which is frustrating but ethically sound).

    Don’t put words into my mouth either. You suggested I assume sex is a necessity for love and a family. First of all, no, although I think it helps. Although I think it’s silly of you to call me on something like this either way considering you DO seem to think it a necessity for a deep relationship, as you said several paragraphs prior to the part about affairs…even though in the paragraph about affairs you said the phrase “nice try zach but you do realise sexless couples can still be in love and be great parents together.” I’m assuming you meant that to be a question, and regardless of the last part about being great parents you DID say before “For me it is impossible to have a deep relatioship with no sex sorry thats what seprates it from a close friendship.” That’s a direct copy/paste. They all are, as I assume was the same when you quoted me. The importance is the context, as always. You were talking about the difference between female friends and romance in one part and in the other you were leading into calling out my beliefs about divorce (which you erroneously interpreted, to boot) but the thing that links them is where in one you say you need sex and the other that it’s perfectly possible to have a good relationship without it. True, the first one said “For me” so perhaps you were talking about you specifically. If that is the case I’ll back down on that with pleasure, but you need to clarify. And no, I never said open marriages are bad. If you’d notice, I said an open marriage is FINE and the ONLY time when extramarital sex is actually okay, which is something you yourself called me on earlier, presumably misunderstanding what I said as I didn’t actually use the term (See? I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt. Would that you were willing to give the same courtesy) but what I was saying is an open marriage is DIFFERENT from an affair and, now that I come to think of it, while I said before that a spouse shouldn’t be controlling, which is true, I stand by the statement that ILLICIT sex outside marriage is wrong. Divorce is not always the best option, obviously (the main reason someone should get divorced is a lack of love- unable to be remedied even with effort to reignite feelings- or if there is abuse) but trying to be controlling is abusive and that is what we were discussing.

    And if you enter marriage and withhold sex, regardless of whether it’s right or not (it is, but not in excess; sometimes people aren’t in the mood and that’s understandable but it shouldn’t be that they never are) it is not deceptive. Deception means you are doing something that is fooling someone else, hiding something or lying, and is directly tied to information and cannot be a used as a term when not discussing information in some way. If you are withholding sex for unreasonable periods of time (which is an arbitrary amount entirely but I would say would be close to more than a few weeks and after that you’d better give a decent amount at once…although as I said this is arbitrary) but are not lying about it by pushing plans further and further back or taunting by saying you want sex and then withholding it (which are both very abusive to boot) then you are not being deceptive. And saying no one else owes you sex and that a spouse owes fidelity is not hypocritical or logically unsound. Fidelity is the same as faithfulness, meaning you don’t roam around looking for others without permission (and both parties have the right to give or not give permission on this point, although it should be the same for both parties- meaning you are both given or not given permission).Sex is…sex. You can be faithful and not want sex yourself. Indeed if you don’t want sex I don’t see why you wouldn’t be faithful.Either way, I have admitted that after a point it is unreasonable to withhold sex (and there are plenty of innocent and not wanting for control reasons to do so, by the way, like medical or (as much as I hate to say it, and I do because I find it stupid) religious reasons- you can be withholding sex to be controlling, but you are not automatically trying to be controlling if you withhold sex, so intent is clearly an issue here) without- as mentioned just before this- good cause.

    On the last point you made, specifically in the last paragraph, I admit I was originally confused about why you said those two things made me hypocritical as I considered the two statements unrelated. Now I understand. In the first statement I say no one is obligated to give anything to people; they just can if they so choose, but it isn’t required. I was talking specifically about sex but it can easily be extended to everything I suppose (without the context; this is important for later). In the second part I said it is one’s duty to do something in regards to helping someone else come to understanding and it would be unethical to not try or even to give up. The point you’re making is that in one I said no obligations are there while in the other I said there are, correct? Well, I’ve thought about it and have come to this conclusion. In this situation I am not being hypocritical, although I should have chosen my words better. I admit I was not certain where the first part came from until I looked though the entire article (and a point on that in a bit) and it was in the first post I said, near the end. It directly had to do with obligations to give a partner sex.This other part directly has to do with discourse and debate between differing opinions, something decidedly not sexual. The two are entirely unrelated as I first thought. Seriously. The first point I made should have been worded more clearly I suppose, although given the context (which, once again, is very important) I was clearly talking about withholding sex and sexual rights and not making a general statement. This is not a cop out, although I realize you have no way of getting confirmation of my honesty. Please give me the benefit of the doubt and think it was a problem of wording and misinterpretation (and, like context, words are important. Which ones used and in what order can give off very different meanings or impressions, and indeed even the same exact wording with different emphasis can give off different meanings. I hope I am preaching to the choir here and you agree with this). I can ask no more than that.

    I think something I have not done before this point- and it has been a mistake on my part- is review the entire situation in each round of discussion. I have looked at what you have written last and what I have written last and that’s been it. While this was fine initially, clearly enough has been said that at this point there is simply so much ground to cover that everything has to be taken into consideration, including the things at the beginning.

    Finally, to help my case that I am incel (and obviously I don’t want to be, so it’s not like I would strive to prove I was if I wasn’t) I will quote wikipedia (and it IS a direct copy/paste).

    “Involuntary celibacy is the absence in human sexuality of intimate relationships or sexual intercourse for reasons other than voluntary celibacy, asexuality, antisexualism, or sexual abstinence. The term (which is sometimes shortened to incel) describes those who, despite being open to sexual intimacy and potential romance with someone and also making active, repeated efforts towards such an end, cannot cause any such end(s) to occur with any significant degree of regularity—or even at all.

    As a concept, involuntary celibacy distinguishes itself from other various celibacy types by two major overall characteristics: First, it is a pattern-like, semi-perpetual condition that cannot seem to improve despite concentrated effort of the affected individual towards improving sex appeal and social skills to try to attract sexual partners. Second, involuntarily celibate individuals are at a complete or near-complete lack for intimate physical connection for very long spans of time—years and even sometimes decades, not merely weeks or months—and are also at a complete or near-complete lack of opportunities for sexual advancement in the first place, thereby making betterment of their own sexuality through accumulation of “sexual experience” impossible”

    On your arguments that I am voluntarily celibate…I fit these criteria. We do not have an actual diagnosis or defined medical condition so we can’t go by more concrete information. There is no black and white at this point about what makes someone an incel so this is the best we’ve got. Please do not press the point further. You are wrong on this point. That is it, and there is no more to discuss. Feel free to discuss any other part of the conversation. Actually, I take that back; there is one more thing you shouldn’t discuss without backing.

    I googled “involuntary emotional celibacy” and guess what? As far as I can tell there is no such condition recognized by anyone, formally or otherwise. As far as I know you have made it up. The first 6 pages (60 links) on google go to involuntary celibacy and it’s emotional effects, or even just on incel in general. The link to this article is on the third page (at least on my search results). It is stupid to debate about “stages” of incel and what is or is not incel other than what fit the wikipedia (or as good as or better) criteria. At least the wikipedia article is contributed to and edited by many different people and seems to be relatively active based on the talk page, even though it says there need to be more citations. It seems no one before you has stated a clear difference between “involuntary emotional celibacy” and “involuntary sexual celibacy” and no one has said one has come before the other or used the term “involuntary emotional celibacy” at all. If there is something I overlooked, show me. If there is not, please do not discuss it further, as it has no merit. You are not an authority on the subject and while your opinion is worthy of consideration it is not enough to make something fact. And you HAVE been treating it as fact.

    Please. I am doing my best to remain civil, and am actually actively trying to avoid insulting or demeaning you. And I am taking everything you say into consideration. I have gotten upset when talking to you about this, but that is because you said upsetting and provocative things. I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and choosing to believe you are simply trying to explain your viewpoint and are not resorting to personal attacks either directly or through insinuation. It is getting harder to do this especially with the last part of your last post, which is what made me upset in the first place. Please offer me the same courtesy I am offering you.

    Finally, if you actually want to get a full idea of my personal ethics (really more of a philosophy with ethics pertaining to it) I am willing to type you up a full and detailed description (which is not on hand as there is no full description anywhere on paper or drive and I would be willing to expend the time needed to write it out; it would be good to get it all in one place anyway) and send it to you in an e-mail, or if you are uncomfortable with that, to write the same information and post it on my woefully underused blog and give you the liink. Really if you’re at all interested (and I understand you very well may not be, and probably aren’t) then I can find a way to get it to you. I will tell you it doesn’t have anything to do with incelibacy at all, and like I mentioned earlier has a lot to do with my attitude towards violence (especially pertaining to deadly force) although it isn’t all about that. It is actually rather extensive as I have a naturally philosophical bent towards life and I have spent a good deal thinking about such things, and it is rather complex and internally consistent for a personal philosophy and code of ethics. There is some anecdotal material attached to it as well as things taken from readings, and has been cobbled together and evolved over the past four or five years and continues to do so. Just warning you about what you’d be getting into if you were interested, although honestly I’m guessing you aren’t since you consider so many of the things I say to be wrong anyway.

  13. bomazo says:

    “And if you enter marriage and withhold sex, regardless of whether it’s right or not (it is, but not in excess; sometimes people aren’t in the mood and that’s understandable but it shouldn’t be that they never are) it is not deceptive. Deception means you are doing something that is fooling someone else, hiding something or lying, and is directly tied to information and cannot be a used as a term when not discussing information in some way. If you are withholding sex for unreasonable periods of time”

    I disagree here it is wrong there’s no two ways about it thats the problem withholding sex is still an acceptable part of society yet cheating isnt they are the same to me period. To me It is deceptive the first thing you should say before you enter the marriage is you will be withholding sex and not doing so that is a form of deception. If you have a reason to withhold you should explain yourself same as if you feel the marriage is at the point where you want to cheat. Im never going to find someone who withholds sex any better than a cheat period and im never going to be convinced otherwise.

    “Firstly, like I said I might not be willing to have sex without emotional connection (romantic connection specifically) I STILL WANT sex and still am UNABLE TO GET IT.”

    This makes more sense than your last post but its still grey Are still saying you want sex with the “one”? because this is exactly what i said about you. To me this is no different to people who are celibate until marriage but can’t get married.

    You at the moment are unable to get emotional connection I didn’t know whether you are unable to get sex before in your previous post. Ill have to disagree here again. But bear with me you are saying your unable to get it anyway I agree your an incel in that way. Like i said before i don’t profess to know everything before you simply didn’t come across as an incel from what you said you didn’t fit its criteria.

    “I googled “involuntary emotional celibacy” and guess what? As far as I can tell there is no such condition recognized by anyone, formally or otherwise. As far as I know you have made it up. ”

    Its not made up but its seems to be not recognised either what you have there is no offical name for it my apologies so you can call yourself an incel if i will disagree, just because i can’t prove your something else, doesn’t mean your automatically an incel, i read about it briefly on a couple of sites when you described your condition but some reason the link is gone its up to you to believe its real or not i no longer have proof. But it still doesn’t mean that “involuntary sexual celibacy” is anything but lack of available partners to have sex with. I simply typed unable to get emotional connection with a partner through sex and thats what i found. Since i have no proof to link it i will concede your point and agree with your statement.

    “Please. I am doing my best to remain civil, and am actually actively trying to avoid insulting or demeaning you. And I am taking everything you say into consideration. I have gotten upset when talking to you about this, but that is because you said upsetting and provocative things. I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and choosing to believe you are simply trying to explain your viewpoint and are not resorting to personal attacks either directly or through insinuation. It is getting harder to do this especially with the last part of your last post, which is what made me upset in the first place. Please offer me the same courtesy I am offering you.”

    Im glad we can agree on that. Ive found this conversation very frustrating however like i stated before you and I are very different and I empathise you situtuation i may not agree its involuntary celibacy and get kinda pissed when you add greys, when my own definiton is clear but that in noway diminishes what you may be going through for mne. I wouldnt take the time to read your extremely long posts either if i didnt take what you said into consideration btw.

    “but the thing that links them is where in one you say you need sex and the other that it’s perfectly possible to have a good relationship without it”

    Yes personally i could never have a good relationship without sex its a necissity for me. However other couples can. You assumed that couples where one person cheats or withholds sex are not in love. Remember to me both are practicing deception so they may still be in love because they do not know. For example someone who withholds sex can trick the other into think its their fault and that means that person will still love them, and the other cheat might not get caught and can still be emotionally connected to the person they are cheating on and vice versa.

    “On your arguments that I am voluntarily celibate…I fit these criteria. We do not have an actual diagnosis or defined medical condition so we can’t go by more concrete information. There is no black and white at this point about what makes someone an incel so this is the best we’ve got. Please do not press the point further. You are wrong on this point. That is it, and there is no more to discuss. Feel free to discuss any other part of the conversation. Actually, I take that back; there is one more thing you shouldn’t discuss without backing.”

    Yes thats why I would disagree on the black and white issue its very clear to me what incel is. Someone who cannot get sex because no one wants to have sex with them. We are going in circles here on this issue so ill have to agree to disagree we both have totally different views here.

    “You are not an authority on the subject and while your opinion is worthy of consideration it is not enough to make something fact. And you HAVE been treating it as fact.”

    “I never said i was. About being an incel I will treat what I said as fact because i am an incel. I will concede other than the sites i read involutary emotional celibacy i have no futher knowledge of and n Yes, I did say I would turn down sex if it wasn’t in the context of a relationship, with that connection, and you were right to point that out. But A. That hasn’t happened and until it does it’s a moot point anyhow (if that ever actually happens this can be re-opened for debate if you wish- not that I believe I’ll be in contact with you) and B. I’m allowed to have standards regardless of my incelibacy, and I think it wrong to deny my right to them regardless of the situation.o proof but i do believe you fit in that criteria more like you said i would have to do futher research and give you proof otherwise my points wont be valid to you in this area again apologies since im want under the impression that this term did exist because of those sites.”

    Yes you are an incel i will agree with you because you have taken the time to state your situtation properly. Heres where i disagree you are allowed to have standards but thats part of celibacy you have to understand from my point of view here; im like a starved person i will eat food you will only eat food you like thats how it comes across to me, either two things are happening here you are not affected by involunatary celibacy or you are a celibate, as you stated i fit in the criteria more than you we both agree but if you really feel like you fit in the criteria of incel with that it seems to be something different from the traditional definition and belief of incel.

    In conclusion i will agree with many of the points you stated and now that you have been more clear on your situtation you do sound like an incel. However if you do get offered sex in the future and reject it for reasons that appear to be those of a celibate like she’s not the right one im afraid i won’t personally consider you an incel i feel because of my situation and 8 years of being bombarded with what you call romance but no physical initmacy i to this day feel used because i am not wanted for physical self like my mental self this is why some of your statements frustrate me. Ive always stated im not an authority on the matter and i will stand by my definiton of what an incel is i know it is correct. But that shouldn’t diminish what you believe is an incel and whether you believe you are one or not just don’t expect me to agree with it but i do respect your opinion.

    As for your personal ethics with respect ive heard enough so no thank you.

  14. Rick says:

    Hi!

    Looks like Heather and Stacy really opened Pandora’s Box………….no pun intended; actually, we are really talking about the box being closed!

    This has been like watching a tennis game………….back and forth, one volley after another.

    I don’t like the term “Incel” because I really don’t think it applies to me; I prefer to use “Forced Celibacy” because I have a partner but she is not interested and is forcing me to live a life of celibacy against my will.

    There is a BIG difference between someone in a committed relationship with a partner who isn’t interested in sex vs the person who is unable to find a partner. You didn’t ask but for the latter I would suggest moving to a new location where people are “getting some” and then if you are still not “getting any” maybe you have an issue that is best helped by an “ist.”

    The comment about “obligation” really bothered me. Personally, I don’t feel the term obligation belongs in a marriage………….I don’t want someone to have sex with me because she feels obligated to have sex like it’s some “chore” around the house that has to be done. I want someone who wants to make love with me because she wants to share with me in the joy of the physical side of love, and I want someone who will initiate making love half of the time. I want someone who wants me. Wants ME! Love and a wedding band are both endless without a beginning and without an end…….and I think making love should also be endless without limitations. Not having that in a committed relationship hurts.

    The comment about “deception” bothered me too. No one can predict that he or she won’t be in the mood next Tuesday or a month from now while working on some big project or while worrying about a sick child or relative; you live together and you love together and you care about each other and you move on because you are a Team and tomorrow is coming. When “tomorrow” doesn’t come, however, there is a problem and I think that is “deception.” The implication at the time of marriage with the vows “to have and to hold, from this day forward” is the happy couple will have an active love life all their days. When one half of the couple pulls out of that contract unilaterally it is deception…………..unless the person is up front: “I don’t know what is wrong with me. I just don’t feel like having sex. It’s not you, it’s me but let’s go together and get some help.”

    I understand not being in the mood today, and the solution to that is easy: cuddle and kiss and set the alarm for a bit earlier than normal or plan to clear the calendar for the next night and give each other your undivided attention. Not being in the mood for 10 days is UNSAT but not being in the mood when it is in the years category is just wrong.

    There is an old joke about the “not tonight, Dear” situation. A husband rolls over next to his wife and kisses her and caresses her. She rolls over to face him and returns the kiss and runs her fingers through his hair and says, “Oh, Sweetie, not tonight. I have an appointment in the morning to see the doctor………..it’s my regular visit to see the OB/GYN and, well, I want to be fresh in the morning when I go. We’ll play tomorrow night.” She kisses him again and rolls back over. A few minutes later he rolls over against her and kisses her neck and caresses her. She rolls to face him again and returns the kiss. Before she says something, he asks, “Are you by any chance seeing the dentist tomorrow too?”

    So what to do? As I said before, I think there are three solutions but I don’t like any of them.

    1. Say adios.

    2. Follow Alan Harper’s lead and climb up the mango tree and put up with a miserable life.

    3. Follow Charlie Harper’s lead and run the streets.

    The “ist” knows I’m done with #2. I think she’s going to tell me it’s time to employ #1. What I hope is she’ll give me permission to do #3.

    Number 3 is not my style, but neither is #1. In my mind the perfect solution is #4: fix the problem.

    In the meantime, I’ve thought about getting six mice and telling my other half they are the pallbearers for her dead pussy.

    • bomazo says:

      Agreed Rick but obviously I was talking months to years just “not tonight honey”. As i stated before people who withhold sex should have legitimate reasons to do so and do need to explain themselves if its not obvious.

      Ive been in two relationships in 2 years where i didn’t get any at all does that count?. The point about obligation was pulled from zach from nowhere he just stated some old standard which meant nothing to the conversation in my opinion. No doubt people shouldn’t feel obligated to do anything in a relationship but usually its give and take, besides why would you want to be with someone who finds sex a chore with you? not me not anymore. Sex is supposed to be a mutual act that couples share. I felt pointing out nobody owes you sex is pointless and doesn’t deal with the deeper issues.

      For people who withhold sex tomorrow will never come either this is deception. When you realize that sex comes no often as your birthday there is a problem beyond “not in the mood today honey”. People who withhold sex usually don’t want help for their problems because this is already a solution for them, exercising control over their partner.

      That’s what i find the issue, these people aren’t victims to me I feel they are more psychologically linked with domestic abusers in the sense they want to hurt and control their partner mentally a far cry from someone who doesn’t want to have sex because they are depressed or lost a loved one etc. Like you said if it hasn’t happened for 10 years because their not in the mood then its plain wrong.

  15. josie says:

    reading this thread left me feeling disturbed. what is wrong with you people. i hope a good portion of these comments are just arrogant blow hards ‘taking the piss’.

    • Lola says:

      I know…I wonder how they saw this article anyways, they dont seem like the usual audience for this type of website!

      • Zachary says:

        I personally found it while googling involuntary celibacy in general. Can’t speak for anyone else.

  16. Lola says:

    I don’t understand the guys who commented. The article is not talking about people whose partners don’t want to have sex with them…it is talking about truly single people who for various reasons aren’t having sex. These two issues are completely different from each other. If you have a spouse or long term partner who doesnt want you to touch him or her anymore–you need to see a therapist -seriously. Or end the relationship–but the reasons behind not wanting to have sex with your husband/bofriends are very very different then a single person having a hard time finding a sex partner. And if you are a single person who wants to have sex but can’t find a willing partner-and its been a long time-then also maybe find a therapist if it bothers you so much that you feel your life isnt worth living…for that matter-if anything in your life makes you feel that bad-you need to take a proactive stand and find help. Life isnt meant to be lived like that. Now, if you feel ok about not having sex, and this article put to rest those guillty shameful feelings about being celibate–then I think that is what the author’s point was-not having sex-as long as you are ok with that, is fine! There are more things in life then sex-sure sex is a biggie and is kind of awesome when done with a little thought put into it–but theres a lot of joy out there to be found in many other things-learning, exercise, traveling, making new friends, owning a pet…maybe concentrate on those things…find some joy–and guys-the women may be more attracted to you …and also…every one masturbates, its how most people relax, get their frustrations out, and it is a substitution for sex-until the right time comes along and you find a suitable sex partner again-don’t knock it!

    • Zachary says:

      That’s the thing, though. Incel isn’t about people who have a hard time finding sex for a few months or a year and miss it, but about people who have been actively seeking some way to have it (whether it’s the most important thing in their life or not) and are unable to for multiple years, and in some cases even decades.

      Yes, most everyone masturbates, but is it really the same? Masturbating is generally a solo activity, sex isn’t. When you’re masturbating you get the same physical release, but it’s not working emotionally. Like I said before, in my situation sex is actually secondary to an actual relationship. I’m younger than many, but I’ve been of dating age for at least five or six years depending on your personal definition of “dating age” is. In that time I’ve liked several women, and have told my feelings to or asked out about a dozen, maybe a few more. Some I liked more than others, but I gave it a shot with many, and not once have I ever had those feelings reciprocated or even gotten the chance to go out on a single date, and I certainly haven’t gotten the chance to have sex. Maybe I’m a late bloomer, but 21 doesn’t necessarily feel like it fits in that category; it feels like it’s gone past it by at least a couple years. Like I said before no one should have to reciprocate, but still, my self-esteem when it comes to romance is kind of shot. And those emotional issues tied to it are the main issue.

      Maybe part of the problem is the fact that I stick to my standards- others here think that I don’t qualify as incel for that- but I don’t think forcing myself to lower them is fair to myself either. Maybe those standards are a bit too high? I don’t think so. I mean, there are a few things I don’t budge on, like I won’t date smokers or drug users because I find the habits personally repulsive, but that isn’t unreasonable, I think and there’s also a certain kind of girl I like, as I’ve noticed a pattern in the kind of girl I’m attracted to. I like girls who are highly intelligent, often (but not always) have some sort of creative hobby or major pursuit, care about the world around them (meaning things like politics and the environment, and other people), and am general physical attracted to women with red or brunette hair and an average build (perhaps a bit thin, but often not), and often with lighter complexions (from downright pale to a bit tan). Generally I also prefer women who are atheists like myself, or at least agnostic or not hugely focused on religion. I guess essentially I look for someone with a personality kind of like my own but preferably a bit more practical to keep me tied down to the here and now. But I’m willing to sacrifice (although perhaps that isn’t the right word) any of these attributes besides the two deal breakers and the intelligence. In L.A. where I live, where there are millions of people, these things don’t even narrow down the possibilities a ton, and I find many girls I’m attracted to at least on a superficial level and frequently enough on a deeper one without even actively seeking them out everywhere (not saying I don’t actively seek out a relationship, but that I don’t need to actively seek out decent girls because there are many found without needing to), although I do check up on a dating site every so often.

      Maybe the issue then is that the kind of girl I’m usually attracted to is not usually attracted to me? Yet even then I feel that that can’t be quite right, because people’s tastes often widely differ and you’d think that there would still be a few where a mutual attraction is found. But I haven’t found them, and with each subsequent rejection it feels less and less likely I ever will.

      Looking for a relationship/sex is not all I do or all I care about. I’m a guy with many passions, especially in academics and creative pursuits where I often shine brightest. But that doesn’t diminish the importance of finding a relationship/having sex either. Surely you can agree with that.

      On a side note, I do have a therapist but quite frankly I’ve never treated therapists quite the same way most do. More often than not I turn to my friends for advice and not a therapist/psychologist unless I feel like they’re a friend too. It’s not about finding the right psychologist either, because I’ve been to a few and several of them have been decent. I’m just naturally slightly less trusting with a person who is helping me when they’re getting paid for it, at least in a profession like mental health. How am I able to be certain that it isn’t just a job for them? So in the end the only reason why I still go to a therapist is because I enjoy decent conversations and the guy I see is a nice guy who I enjoy talking to, and if I stopped seeing him I would be deprived of those interesting discussions. My mother has pointed out the oddness of not wanting advice for money but being perfectly willing to pay for what is essentially a conversation, but in the end I feel the two situations are different, and it’s my money besides. The point I’m making is that therapists have never really been effective for me. Before I was weaned entirely off the meds I’d been prescribed for years the only reason I saw anyone was because the psychiatrist said they were unable to renew the prescriptions without a consulting psychologist. It’s kind of ironic how now that I only take the heart medication that I don’t need one for I’m hesitant to let go entirely, but that’s not really the issue at hand.

      The author has clearly not experienced what it’s like to be incel. While this doesn’t automatically condemn her opinion to invalidity or make her less informed, what she wrote still shows she doesn’t quite get it. And quite frankly, from what you’ve written, neither do you. No disrespect meant, but you seem to misunderstand the situation many people- men and women alike- are in.

      • Jane says:

        Hi Zachary,

        I’m a girl but you sound a lot like me. I agree with what you’re saying. It’s not about just having sex, but about sex resulting as a process of courtship and intimacy. Perhaps as a woman I can get casual sex more easily but I don’t feel safe going home with drunk, horny guys at bars. So involuntary celibacy is really about the combination of sex and intimacy never conjoining.

        I think the reason you’re having difficulties is because you’re probably way too smart for most people. Most people feel a lot more comfortable around mediocre minds. From reading your posts it’s clear you’re a very high functioning thinker and feel intensely about various issues. American culture is especially banal and superficial and I find most people here are sort of brainwashed by pop culture. If you’re living outside of the pop culture paradigm most people just don’t know how to interpret you because you don’t fit in to their pre-existing framework. Most people will just take the path of least resistance and go for whatever they’re used to already. I refuse to be phony and all my life I’ve suffered with loneliness because of it. I don’t take it personally. The men who have rejected me have been immature and sort of stupid, but that does nothing to relieve my loneliness. Rather, that is the essence of my loneliness. I seem to be stuck in a culture that does not understand me or embrace me. This is why I am having such a hard time making an intimate connection.

        I find the Myers-Briggs personality types a good thing to study to understand how you fit in with other people. When I read this I found out only 1% of the population shares my personality type, which explains a lot of my involuntary celibacy.

        The psychological repercussions go beyond sexual frustration. My self-esteem has taken a huge hit because of being unable to find partnerships. Mostly it’s just the overwhelming sense of not being wanted or desired. Even if someone really nice came along tomorrow, it just feels like a drop in the bucket. I wanted to feel normal. I never wanted to be marginalized.

  17. Rick says:

    Hi Josie,

    I’m sorry if I was long-winded. I’m not a blow hard and I’m certainly not arrogant. Sometimes I wish I WAS arrogant and a jerk too………..then I wouldn’t have this problem. Part of my problem is I’m an old-school gentleman and well-mannered……….and patient. LOL…….as Professor Henry Higgins says, “Let a woman in your life and patience hasn’t got a chance. Make a plan you will find, she has something ELSE in mind, then rather than do either you will do something else that neither likes at all.”

    My patience has been killed! During the course of our 20-year relationship we have never had the thrills of honeymoon or vacation sex, but had the joys of comfort sex for many years. Then comfort sex turned into “well, if you really have to go ahead but get it over with quickly” sex. That turned into no sex 10 years ago and now includes not looking at her when she’s undressed or touching her “private parts”………….no gentle caress when I’m kissing her good night.

    I’m not a blow hard. I’m a romantic. I’m also a gentle and peaceful man. On the other hand, I raced sailboats and won a national championship, I was an officer in the military, and I few as a pilot for the airlines…………so I’m not a dud or a nerd. “I’m just an ordinary man, who likes to live his life, free from strife” and I’m tired of the strife that comes from forced celibacy. I think bamazo is correct and that this situation is one of living with a partner who takes great joy in exercising control………..what a shame, for both of us, that she doesn’t take great joy in the simple pleasures of making love.

  18. ILWN says:

    As a 38 year old male who has never even gotten to “First Base”, I can tell you definitively that involuntary celibacy is one of those things that is going to yield lots of interesting findings once the medical community starts taking it seriously and researches it. Involuntary celibacy is probably the most deviant of all sexual behaviors. You cannot “come out of the closet”, to anyone. There are no support groups. You live on the sidelines of society, like a spectator watching a baseball game on the sidewalk through the chain link fence. You become consumed with bitterness, dread, terror, and hopelessness. You become resentful of individuals that are having sex. You cannot engage in the activities of life. You exist, but do not thrive. Watching individuals 10-15 years your junior develop relationships that you will never have affects you in ways you cannot imagine. You look up dating websites and see people proudly proclaiming “NO CASUAL SEX”, knowing full well that they probably have never had a problem with involuntary celibacy. Virginity is NOT “cool”. It is not something to cherish or celebrate. It is not something to be made fun of. It IS something that needs to be examined in a greater context. One day, sexlessness will be viewed in the same light has hunger, homelessness, and joblessness. I wish that day were today.

  19. lurker says:

    “I don’t see myself as an “incel” but rather as living a life of forced celibacy. We have rules about forcing sex……….we call it “rape” and you can’t do that! I think it’s time we had a rule for forced celibacy too………….it’s just not right to force someone against their will to live a celibate life.”

    When nobody wants to have sex with you, what do you want to do instead of not have sex? Have sex with someone who doesn’t want to have sex with you – in other words, rape that person?

    We have rules against forcing sex, we call it rape and you can’t do that – not even when the alternative is you staying celibate against your will! Being forced to have sex against one’s will is a ton more painful (physical damage, risk of pregnancy if the rape victim is female and fertile, risk of HIV or other STDs, etc.) than not having a sex partner and resorting to masturbation when one wants to have sex.

    Everyone deserves the right to not have sex one doesn’t want to have – even when refusing to have sex with someone else leaves that someone else involuntarily celibate.

  20. lurker says:

    “When you enter a marriage and with-hold sex you are decieving the other person. ”

    Either that or you don’t want to conceive and believe that abstinence is the best birth control, or you have a health problem that makes intercourse painful, or you have an STD that you *don’t* want to infect your spouse with, or your marriage was forced and you never wanted to have sex with the person you were forced to marry in the first place…

  21. lurker says:

    “It is not something to cherish or celebrate.”

    I’m a 33-year-old virgin. I haven’t found anyone I can love and trust enough to have sex with.

    I cherish the fact that I’m still a virgin instead of having had a painful first time having some date whom I don’t love and trust chafing my turned-off vagina and making my dry vaginal walls tear and bleed (more than the hymen can bleed).

    I cherish the fact that my family allows me to stay a virgin (they don’t know that I’m still a virgin – I don’t want them to know exactly if/when I lose it, and that would be the easiest to hide if I do the same not-telling-them before and after – but since they’re not ordering me to have sex they’re still allowing me to stay a virgin) instead of forcing to marry someone I don’t love and trust.

    I cherish the fact that my boss allows me to stay a virgin (he doesn’t know I’m a virgin, but since he’s not ordering me to have sex he’s still allowing me to stay a virgin) instead of threatening to fire me if I don’t put out.

    I cherish the fact that if I get laid off, I can still stay a virgin instead of resorting to having sex for money with customers I don’t love and trust in order to not starve to death.

    I cherish the fact that I’m a virgin instead of having even worse luck and getting raped.

  22. bomazo says:

    Lurker wtf are you on about?
    Sex does not = rape or violence, if your scared to lose your viginity go see a therapist clearly you have issues.

    “I’m a 33-year-old virgin. I haven’t found anyone I can love and trust enough to have sex with.”
    Thats your own personal problem you probably are an incel but the way you contridict youself shows you are a celibate.

    “I cherish blah blah blah”

    Cut the vagina monolgoue crap seriosuly if you hate men get a therapist or date women tried of hearing that crap.

    “Either that or you don’t want to conceive and believe that abstinence is the best birth control,”

    Good so find someone that agrees with that and marry them instead. You not width-holding sex if your partner agrees with you not to have sex. Width-holding sex is a one way street.

    “or you have an STD that you *don’t* want to infect your spouse with,”

    How thoughtfull maybe you should be more faithfull instead of being a cheap slut or maybe you should be more honest about your medical conditions before you marry your spouse in the first place btw stds dont pop outta thin air. Some people witdthhold sex because they are getting it elsewhere since your the expert im suprised you didn’t mention it.

    In the event of a forced marriage you can get a divorce in this country stop bringing other countries into it we are talking about normal marriages. NORMAL MARRIAGES where the wife or husband suddendly decide to widthhold sex from their partner NORMAL people who don’t get laid for whatever reason have to deal with involuntary celibacy.

    “When nobody wants to have sex with you, what do you want to do instead of not have sex? Have sex with someone who doesn’t want to have sex with you – in other words, rape that person?”

    Your ignorance of the situation is astounding, way to shit on all men and women who deal with this problem. You obviously think only men have this problem thats why you talk like this seriously grow up. Women deal with involuntary celibacy too. Get off your high horse your just scared to have sex so don’t put down incels because they can have sex normally but can’t find anyone to do it with we are not automatic or eventual rapists just because that fits your screwed up logic.

  23. lurker says:

    “Sex does not = rape or violence,”

    Of course. Sex only = rape and violence *when it’s not consensual.* Since I *haven’t been lucky enough to find someone I’m willing to have sex with who’s also willing to have sex with me*, then the only way I could have had sex is to either be forced to have sex against my will or force someone else to have sex against his or her will. I’m glad that I’m a virgin instead.

    “I cherish blah blah blah”

    I don’t want to have sex that would hurt me. You dismiss this opinion. Do you dismiss the opinions of other people who also don’t want to have sex that would hurt them? If so, then wonder they don’t want to have sex with you.

    “‘Either that or you don’t want to conceive and believe that abstinence is the best birth control,’

    “Good so find someone that agrees with that and marry them instead. You not width-holding sex if your partner agrees with you not to have sex.”

    Not everyone who believes the hype about abstinence as a birth control has a spouse who also wants to use abstinence as a birth control. Not everyone who has given up on other birth control methods gave up on them before marriage (for example, consider when someone’s cool with contraceptives when he or she gets married, then his condoms break or her pill fails, then he or she wants to abstain since he or she doesn’t want yet *another* unwanted child and meanwhile his or her spouse still wants to have sex…).

    “How thoughtfull maybe you should be more faithfull instead of being a cheap slut”

    Married people who do their best to be faithful sometimes still get infected despite their best efforts, because of other people raping and infecting them.

    “Women deal with involuntary celibacy too.”

    I know, I’m one of them myself. I’d also rather *stay* involuntarily celibate than settle for one of the male virgins who badmouths women, still demands sex from a women, etc.

    “Get off your high horse your just scared to have sex”

    I actually was *not* scared of having sex someday until *after* I finished reading stuff written and posted by my male counterparts, men who are as virginal as I am and as old as I am, about how much they hate women and girls for not putting out for them. Now I’m terrified – if I go out with a guy who’s like me (Remember all the advice out there about not expecting more from a date than you can offer yourself? I can’t expect any more socially skilled than a 33-year-old virgin boyfriend, the same way a fat woman can’t expect any thinner than a fat boyfriend), will I be able to trust him or will he turn out to be lying to me just to get laid and leave me bruised and bleeding on the sheets?

    “…’When nobody wants to have sex with you, what do you want to do instead of not have sex? Have sex with someone who doesn’t want to have sex with you – in other words, rape that person?’

    “Your ignorance of the situation is astounding, way to shit on all men and women who deal with this problem…”

    So, what’s your answer to the question?

    There are 3 options:
    (a) Having sex with someone who wants to have sex with you
    (b) Not having sex (unless you count masturbation as having sex with yourself)
    (c) Having sex with someone who doesn’t want to have sex with you – in other words, raping that person

    When you can’t do (a) because there is no one who wants to have sex with you, what do you want to do instead of (b)? Do you want to do (c), or do you think there is some 4th option (d) that I’m ignoring? If you want to do (d), then what is (d)?

    “…we are not automatic or eventual rapists just because that fits your screwed up logic…”

    Nope, the ones who are automatic or eventual rapists are that way just because that fits *their* screwed up logic about how they are supposedly worse off than rape victims (see http://undesirablemale.wordpress.com/2008/03/15/pick-your-poison-rape-or-chronic-forced-celibacy-with-no-end-in-sight/), about how they supposedly will get sick if they don’t have sex (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8677637.stm), etc. The *rest* of us are not automatic or eventual rapists.

  24. bomazo says:

    “I don’t want to have sex that would hurt me. You dismiss this opinion. Do you dismiss the opinions of other people who also don’t want to have sex that would hurt them? If so, then wonder they don’t want to have sex with you.”

    Here’s the clue train to stop you i didn’t “dismiss” your opinion i just said thats your problem and your are a celibate for that reason. There’s people who don’t want to have children because of the fear of pain during child birth.

    Clue number 2 i don’t want to hurt people with sex idiot thats your assumption. Not everybody thinks like you and not everybody is a virgin like you. And yes ive had sex before and i have female friends who have had plenty sex, if i ever dated someone like you i would dismiss you not force myself on you. Dumbass. I wouldn’t waste my time with a messed up person like you. IT WOULD BE A COMPLETE WASTE OF MY TIME.

    Your such a moron i don’t desire sex with virgin women who the hell really does? i want good sex with an experianced woman. If a 33 year virgin woman wants to have sex with me sure why not but its not my preference.

    Option d)? how about find ways to build your confidence? talk to people going through the same problem as you, see therapists, activate to make this problem known so that other incels wont feel the need to be judged by people like you lurker and get help for this? having a more positive view of life? dealing with other forms of depression that you have that may cause you to be a turn off etc?

    yeah you missed alot you have no logic stop pretending you do ok lurker.

    “Married people who do their best to be faithful sometimes still get infected despite their best efforts, because of other people raping and infecting them.”

    Ah so if someone cheats on you its always because they got raped. Getting raped is not cheating wtf is wrong with you. Cheating is why “you have sex” (sex= a mutual consentual act between individuals) with someone other than your partner without them approving.

    Who said my situation is worse than rape some random blog? you are insane nobody here on this message board thinks incel is worse than rape, we are talking about depression is depression different things make different people depressed some people get more depressed about things than others.

    Why would you wanna date vigin men anyway? i though women usually go for more experianced men. You need to go out more all men are not evil its easy to use the internet to confirm anything. Besides im sorry but your expecting me to show you some empathy why you try and paint virgin men as women haters. This problems starts with you are you from congo africa? really.

    Im sorry im not interested this is a blog for incels not 3rd world countries.

    “Not everyone who believes the hype about abstinence as a birth control has a spouse who also wants to use abstinence as a birth control.”

    So you resort to lying? pathethic really. So when you are desperate for a relationship you lie about alot of things and you expect other people to be moral.

    “I know, I’m one of them myself. I’d also rather *stay* involuntarily celibate than settle for one of the male virgins who badmouths women, still demands sex from a women, etc.”

    I would love to see that honestly given your warped view if you actually become a real incel one day when you do find that man or woman who is the one but have absolutely no interest in you then you will know what incels feel like maybe you will finally become humbled who knows.

    Like i said you’re celebate because you hate men. The definition of incel is when no-one wants an initmate sexual relationship with you and thats not you and you should be happy about that incel is not a good thing. Being raped doesn’t stop you from being an incel. Incels can’t get sexual intimacy rape is not sexual intimacy.

    I think you hate the fact that sometimes men too feel victimized, many men have commited suicide being bullied too and you can’t stand the fact that men have feelings like women do because it would not paint them as the predators you want them to be painted as. Honestly you are wack job seek help. The whole world doesnt operate in your space.

    The discussion was about incels not about rape in congo smh im not gonna be sucked into your crap.

    The poster Zachary is a virgin ive never heard him talk badly about women at all.

  25. lurker says:

    “Here’s the clue train to stop you i didn’t “dismiss” your opinion”

    You summed it up as “Blah blah blah”. That’s pretty dismissive.

    “Option d)? how about find ways to build your confidence? talk to people going through the same problem as you, see therapists, activate to make this problem known so that other incels wont feel the need to be judged by people like you lurker and get help for this? having a more positive view of life? dealing with other forms of depression that you have that may cause you to be a turn off etc?”

    That’s not an alternative to options (a), (b), and (c), and it’s not an answer to the question:

    “There are 3 options:
    (a) Having sex with someone who wants to have sex with you
    (b) Not having sex (unless you count masturbation as having sex with yourself)
    (c) Having sex with someone who doesn’t want to have sex with you – in other words, raping that person

    “When you can’t do (a) because there is no one who wants to have sex with you, what do you want to do instead of (b)? Do you want to do (c), or do you think there is some 4th option (d) that I’m ignoring? If you want to do (d), then what is (d)?”

    Finding ways to build your confidence, talking to people going through the same problems as you, seeing therapists, having a more positive view of life, and dealing with other forms of depression that you have that may cause you to be a turn off are all things one can do *during* (b) until/unless (a) is an option.

    As for the activism, some of the activism I’ve seen seems to go with (b) and some of it seems to go with (c).

    “Ah so if someone cheats on you its always because they got raped.”

    I didn’t say that.

    “…we are talking about depression…”

    Sure looked like a talk about fighting against celibacy instead of fighting against depression.

    “different things make different people depressed some people get more depressed about things than others…”

    This is a great point. I agree 100%.

    “…I would love to see that honestly given your warped view if you actually become a real incel one day when you do find that man or woman who is the one but have absolutely no interest in you…”

    This has already happened a number of times.

    “…then you will know what incels feel like maybe you will finally become humbled who knows…”

    I’m already *more* humbled than some “incels”.

    See, I’m humble enough to *respect* that *no means no* instead of claiming to be oppressed by it. When someone I’d want doesn’t want me back, I *respect* that he has the right to not want me, the *same* way I have the right to not want sex with someone who turns me off and Zachary here has the right to his “I still keep standards of what I consider attractive both sexually and personality wise, and I do not strive to go below them.”

    “The discussion was about incels not about rape in congo smh im not gonna be sucked into your crap.”

    “Who said my situation is worse than rape some random blog?”

    Nope, that blogger said *his* situation was worse than rape.

    That rapist in the Congo was involuntarily celibate until he raped someone.

    “The poster Zachary is a virgin ive never heard him talk badly about women at all.”

    Nor have I. Read this paragraph again, and keep track of exactly which people are specified when:

    “Nope, the ones who are automatic or eventual rapists are that way just because that fits *their* screwed up logic about how they are supposedly worse off than rape victims (see http://undesirablemale.wordpress.com/2008/03/15/pick-your-poison-rape-or-chronic-forced-celibacy-with-no-end-in-sight/), about how they supposedly will get sick if they don’t have sex (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8677637.stm), etc. The *rest* of us are not automatic or eventual rapists.”

    “I think you hate the fact that sometimes men too feel victimized, many men have commited suicide being bullied too and you can’t stand the fact that men have feelings like women do because it would not paint them as the predators you want them to be painted as.”

    When did I ever say *any* of that? Remember, I did point out that some men have been raped too. Not all men are the ones I find intimidating, not all men are predatory, etc. If I was gay or bisexual I’d feel just as scared of sex thanks to the fraction of “incel” women who have those same nasty attitudes as the fraction of “incel” men who have those nasty attitudes.

  26. Bomazo says:

    “See, I’m humble enough to *respect* that *no means no* instead of claiming to be oppressed by it. When someone I’d want doesn’t want me back, I *respect* that he has the right to not want me, the *same* way I have the right to not want sex with someone who turns me off and Zachary here has the right to his “I still keep standards of what I consider attractive both sexually and personality wise, and I do not strive to go below them.”

    You are so arrogant arent you? So what if no means no it doesnt stop people from getting derpressed about it. If you are in a marriage and your partner withholds sex from you? are you humble enough to shut up and accept it? if so good for you but guess what not everyone is like that and that doesnt make you better than them.

    What if your child abandons or family you? are you going to tell all mothers just accept it no means no just be humble and quit crying?. Some people get upset by it incels do suffer they are not oppressed but they get depression nobody has the right to demand love but if they dont get it they can get depressed what the fuck is your point exactly? stop trivilising involuntary celibacy GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE.

    The thing is you claimed all men you know turned you off so what? you are choosing to be celibate. Zachary has never had an offer so he is an incel i never agreed about his standards statement he is an incel because he has never been offered in the first place. I don’t agree with him in any other way than he is an incel because nobody wants to have sex with him.

    “That rapist in the Congo was involuntarily celibate until he raped someone.”

    Good point he also probably ate rice, so we need to take a close look at all the men who eat rice aswell moron. Anybody can be a rapist from any walk of life with any attitude from any circumstance the sooner you get that the better.

    Being involunatarily celibate doesn’t lead to rape anymore that anything else, if so then you are a potential rapist too since you keep claim you are an incel why should i believe anything you say im sure that rapist went through a phase of i dont need women and women always bad mouth men just like you are doing right now.

    Besides I thought rape was about power? not about sexual wants or needs? some rapists can get consentual sex and still rape. So your point about lack of sex depression or frustration doesnt really stand.

    “That’s not an alternative to options (a), (b), and (c), and it’s not an answer to the question:”

    It is an answer you are basically asking what you do about it and i gave you an answer stop repeating the same bullshit its nonsense from your warped logic. a)b)c) who gives a shit? because i dont, its how you view the world not anyone else only morons like you simplify things this way. Your questions were answered i cant help you any futher if you cant accept it.

    You’ve said incel is a good thing? thats like telling a woman being unable to concieve is good thing. It might be for some women who dont want kids but having the choice is important. Incels dont have a choice and they have to deal with it. What you are doing is promoting celibacy good for you. But trivilising plight of many incels just because you can deal with it um no i disagree.

    Besides i dont agree with that blogger but i agree with >>>HIS(male human)<<< final conclusion, dont laugh and shame people who can't get sex its a form bullying, and maybe thats the real lesson you should learned from that blog too.

    Honestly im done wasting my time on you to me you are a wackjob. Ive wasted way too much time on you, goodbye.

  27. lurker says:

    “So what if no means no it doesnt stop people from getting derpressed about it. ”

    So what if no means no? That’s really how you feel about the reasoning against rape?

    “If you are in a marriage and your partner withholds sex from you? are you humble enough to shut up and accept it?”

    *Yes I am*. I’d shut up and accept that he doesn’t want to have sex with me anymore instead of pressuring him to have sex that he doesn’t want to have. Whether I stayed with him or whether I left, either way I wouldn’t insist that he should have sex with me when he doesn’t want to.

    “if so good for you but guess what not everyone is like that and that doesnt make you better than them.”

    Not everyone is like that because some people *do* want to pressure other people to have sex they don’t want to have. The rest of us, those of us who *don’t* want to pressure other people to have sex they don’t want to have, *are* better than that.

    “What if your child abandons or family you?”

    This sentence makes no sense at all. Family isn’t even a verb.

    “what the fuck is your point exactly? stop trivilising involuntary celibacy GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE.”

    My point is that some of you are trivializing the right to refuse sex one doesn’t want to have and trivializing how depressing *that* can be.

    “and women always bad mouth men just like you are doing right now.”

    I’m not badmouthing men, I’m badmouthing jerks who demand sex with other people when other people don’t want to have sex with them. Lots of men are not those jerks.

    “Good point he also probably ate rice, so we need to take a close look at all the men who eat rice aswell”

    Nope, he himself did say he raped because otherwise he’d be involuntarily celibate. He didn’t say he raped because he probably ate rice.

    “Being involunatarily celibate doesn’t lead to rape anymore that anything else,”

    Of course being involuntarily celibate doesn’t lead to rape. It’s wanting to have sex with someone who doesn’t want to have you (whether or not you proclaim involuntary celibacy as a reason for it) that, when you act on it, leads to rape.

    “some rapists can get consentual sex and still rape. ”

    That’s so true, and that’s why I never said that involuntary celibacy’s the *only* excuse rapists use for rape.

    “It is an answer you are basically asking what you do about it”

    No, I was basically asking if you’d rather not have sex or have sex with someone unwilling while nobody’s willing to have sex with you. For example, while no one’s willing to have sex with you, would you rather get therapy and have sex with no one or get therapy and have sex with someone who’s unwilling to have sex with you?

    “You’ve said incel is a good thing? thats like telling a woman being unable to concieve is good thing.”

    It’s a good thing *because* the alternative to not having sex with someone until/unless someone’s willing to have sex with you is having sex with someone against his/her will until/unless someone’s willing to have sex with you.

    “But trivilising plight of many incels just because you can deal with it um no i disagree.”

    I just pointed out that some of *them* trivialize the *even worse and even more depressing* plight of people suffering from being pressured or forced to sex that they didn’t want to have.

    “Besides i dont agree with that blogger but i agree with >>>HIS(male human)<<< final conclusion, dont laugh and shame people who can't get sex its a form bullying,"

    I don't laugh at people who can't get sex, and I agree that it's a form of bullying. It's cool to shame bullies for bullying, including shaming people who use their inability to get sex to try to bully other people into having sex with them.

  28. bomazo says:

    “So what if no means no? That’s really how you feel about the reasoning against rape?”

    I believe people have a right to get upset emotional or feel depression after rejection. I don’t feel anything justifies rape.

    “*Yes I am*. I’d shut up and accept that he doesn’t want to have sex with me anymore instead of pressuring him to have sex that he doesn’t want to have.”

    Thats where you and me are different. I wouldn’t put up with that sort of nonsense i would leave that person if they didn’t change their ways or deal with their problems just like if they were an alchoholic. In my opinion you are a doormat and there’s nothing to be proud about in that. If he was cheating on you would you shut and accept it instead of pressuring him to stop?

    “My point is that some of you are trivializing the right to refuse sex one doesn’t want to have and trivializing how depressing *that* can be.”

    Have a read of the link below:
    http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/abusiverelationships/a/pa_sex.htm

    Personally i want nothing to do with indivuals who widthhold sex i dont think anyone should be forced to put up with it. No doubt it can be caused by depression but they are punishing their spouse and they clearly dont want help for their depression they are no different to alchololics they get no sympathy from me they can deal with their depression by themselves. its a choice to withhold sex ultimately for normal healthy people however its not a choice to be an incel.

    “Of course being involuntarily celibate doesn’t lead to rape. It’s wanting to have sex with someone who doesn’t want to have you (whether or not you proclaim involuntary celibacy as a reason for it) that, when you act on it, leads to rape”

    I think your still ridiculing incels and trivialising their plight by saying this. Nobody uses incel as an excuse to rape anymore than anything else. All you are doing is trying to scare incels who have depression into getting better by saying their depression may lead to them becoming rapists. You are either a rapist or not they rapists are the minority and they dont represent any group. So with that being said stop giving me the definiton of rape i know what rape is.

    “No, I was basically asking if you’d rather not have sex or have sex with someone unwilling while nobody’s willing to have sex with you. For example, while no one’s willing to have sex with you, would you rather get therapy and have sex with no one or get therapy and have sex with someone who’s unwilling to have sex with you?”

    You need to settle down with the rape checks, I would not rape anyone under any circumstances period. Im not a rapist. But i do have a question based on your a)b)c) nonsense have you ever thought about having sex with someone “unwilling” lurker?

    “It’s a good thing *because* the alternative to not having sex with someone until/unless someone’s willing to have sex with you is having sex with someone against his/her will until/unless someone’s willing to have sex with you.”

    This is how i know you are not an incel. You seem to confuse rape with sex. Incels who are raped are still incels. Im an incel if i was raped by a gang of men id still be an incel. Incels who rape are rapists they are still incels remember the defintion of an incel is someone who can’t get sex with someone because no-one wants to sleep with them you cant make someone want to sleep with you if you rape them.

    It is never a good thing to be an incel period stop trivilising incels seriously you keep doing it i think you need to actually talk to other incels real incels and actually understand what an incel is before you start saying its a good thing.

    “I just pointed out that some of *them* trivialize the *even worse and even more depressing* plight of people suffering from being pressured or forced to sex that they didn’t want to have.”

    lol for people being pressured into having sex ultimately its their choice to say yes or no and its not worse than being an incel by any stretch imo you can stop people pressuring you by saying no you’re in complete control, you can’t stop being an incel you can only try by asking, and its up to people who don’t want sex but a relationship to find someone who doesn’t want to have sex either. For people being forced as in raped there are laws against it where i come from.

    “It’s cool to shame bullies for bullying, including shaming people who use their inability to get sex to try to bully other people into having sex with them.”

    If by bullies you mean rapists i would go futher and have them arrested.

    If you mean people who ask for sex then no people will have ways to ask for sex thats none of our business how they do it, and that makes you a bully who should really be minding your own business.

  29. lurker says:

    ” In my opinion you are a doormat ”

    I’d rather be your idea of a doormat than bully someone into having sex he doesn’t want to have.

    “Thats where you and me are different. I wouldn’t put up with that sort of nonsense i would leave that person if they didn’t change their ways”

    Leaving that person if he or she didn’t cave in to sex with you (which, BTW, is not nonsense) *is* putting up with that, and is how I’d put up with that.

    “You seem to confuse rape with sex.”

    Having sex with someone who’s unwilling to have sex *is* rape. If there’s no sex involved, it’s not rape – that’s why bank robbery isn’t rape.

    ” I would not rape anyone under any circumstances period. Im not a rapist. ”

    Wonderful! :D

    Since raping someone is your only opportunity to have sex with someone else until/unless someone else actually wants to have sex with you, and you don’t want to rape, then your involuntary celibacy itself until/unless someone else actually wants to have sex with you isn’t the problem. The problem is whatever you’re doing that *causes* everyone else refuse to have sex with you, not the *effect* that is your celibacy.

    “But i do have a question based on your a)b)c) nonsense have you ever thought about having sex with someone “unwilling” lurker?”

    I’ve realized that my only choices are either not having sex with anyone else or having sex with someone against his will, and chosen not having sex with anyone instead of having sex with someone against his will.

    “All you are doing is trying to scare incels who have depression into getting better by saying their depression may lead to them becoming rapists.”

    Of course their depression does not lead to them becoming rapists. Their thinking one deserves sex with someone else who is unwilling (and that includes still thinking one deserves sex to have sex with at least one *someone* when *no one* is willing) is what leads to rape.

    “It is never a good thing to be an incel period”

    Is it perfect? No. Is it much better than rape? Yes, and that’s why it *is* a good thing.

    “lol for people being pressured into having sex ”

    You’re Laughing Out Loud at the plight of people being pressured into sex they don’t want to have.

    No wonder nobody trusts you enough to let you near some of the most sensitive parts of their bodies.

    “If you mean people who ask for sex then no people will have ways to ask for sex thats none of our business how they do it, ”

    Asking for sex by *pressuring* someone who doesn’t want to have sex with him or her *is* a kind of bullying.

  30. Bomazo says:

    “Having sex with someone who’s unwilling to have sex *is* rape. If there’s no sex involved, it’s not rape – that’s why bank robbery isn’t rape. ”

    Ok sherlock and? where did i say it wasn’t? for the 100th time STOP giving me the definition of rape i know what it is. My problem is that you were struggling to use the word rape isn’t just easier to say the word “rape” instead of ” sex with someone that’s unwilling to have sex” everytime lurker? Your not giving this board any credit.

    “I’d rather be your idea of a doormat than bully someone into having sex he doesn’t want to have.”

    I agree with that premise but most people don’t pressure for a long time and if they do the person being pressured has the power to say no and on top of that file for harrassment, but anyway as I said why would I want to be with a person who doesn’t want to have sex with me? I don’t no thanks.

    “Leaving that person if he or she didn’t cave in to sex with you (which, BTW, is not nonsense) *is* putting up with that, and is how I’d put up with that.”

    But its not putting up with it, its the opposite, putting up with something you have to put up with it not walk away, this is walking away, and yes to me this whole “caving into sex thing” its nonsense period ill never be convinced otherwise nor do I want to be, unless someone put a gun to your head etc you don’t cave into sex you choose to do so, you can’t cave into sex anymore than caving into raping someone its a choice and you need to accept the responsibility of your own choice.

    What I find it interesting is that people who don’t want to have sex with people choose people who want to have sex with them, you very rarely see people who with-hold sex dating other people who with-hold sex it always seems to be a one way street and that tells me that they are choosing partners to take out their problems frustrations on its not worth it.

    “Since raping someone is your only opportunity to have sex with someone else until/unless someone else actually wants to have sex with you, and you don’t want to rape, then your involuntary celibacy itself until/unless someone else actually wants to have sex with you isn’t the problem. The problem is whatever you’re doing that *causes* everyone else refuse to have sex with you, not the *effect* that is your celibacy.”

    Think your reading too deep into it lurker. But i do agree to a certain extent focusing inwards getting therapy etc is some of the keys to overcoming incel but factors such as luck, attractiveness, finding the correct partner etc are intangebles that cannot be controlled all you can do is keep trying and working at it and that has nothing to do with celibacy in any aspect celibacy is an exercise of your own personal choice for the most part have complete control over with the exception of being raped etc, however staying in relationships where your partner is with-holding sex from you is a step backwards. Incel is not a choice anymore than catching the flu it just happens sometimes.

    “Is it perfect? No. Is it much better than rape? Yes, and that’s why it *is* a good thing.”

    Again i disagree this what i don’t understand how is raping someone removing your incel? An incel wants to be wanted intimately by another, a rapist wants power over someone. You won’t lose your incel but raping someone.

    “You’re Laughing Out Loud at the plight of people being pressured into sex they don’t want to have.”

    They have the complete power to turn down that pressure, they are also split into many types of groups and many use with-hold as a weapon like the link i gave you before, so I don’t see it as a plight like you do we have laws for harrasment rape etc in my country.

    “No wonder nobody trusts you enough to let you near some of the most sensitive parts of their bodies.”

    And i don’t trust them either relationships are a two way street if someone wont let me “near” them then i walk away. Besides ive had partners in the past who have had sex with me and i have had sex via one night stands too i think the reason im not getting laid is like you say inward problems that project outwards but sometimes its also requires luck which im running low on at the moment, but the last thing im going to do is put up and hang around with passive aggressive people, i couldn’t care less if their going through a “terrible personal plight” *yawns* whats the point of two depressed people bringing each other down better to just walk away and find positive people.

    “I’ve realized that my only choices are either not having sex with anyone else or having sex with someone against his will, and chosen not having sex with anyone instead of having sex with someone against his will.”

    I can see your theory is that based on logic but ive never thought about raping someone ever, i think its really unhealthy to even contemplate rape even for logical purposes. Raping will not remove the problem of incel period, so i cant really make the connection between incel and raping so your theory to me comes across like that of a nutjob here.

    “Asking for sex by *pressuring* someone who doesn’t want to have sex with him or her *is* a kind of bullying.”

    IMO not really since the targeted person has the power. Its like asking someone on a date sometimes you have to ask them more than once before they go out with you ie: the chase which many couples engage in thats not bullying to me.

    If the person asked says no they have a responsibility to be clear with that no and stop any further asking, if they are indicisive then they have to break all speculation or expect the possiblilty of being asked for sex again. If its keeps continuing then either they threathen harrasment or leave that person and make sure that they protect themselves if it means going to the law for a harrassment suit.

    Lurker I have a video for you to watch let me know what you think, its a debate about the julian assange case quite interesting

  31. lurker says:

    “‘Having sex with someone who’s unwilling to have sex *is* rape. If there’s no sex involved, it’s not rape – that’s why bank robbery isn’t rape.’

    “Ok sherlock and? where did i say it wasn’t?”

    At http://sexyfeminist.com/2009/06/15/not-getting-any/#comment-356 where you said “Sex does not = rape or violence,”

    “but most people don’t pressure for a long time and if they do the person being pressured has the power to say no”

    Not always. Sometimes the person being pressured does *not* have as much power to say no because the person doing the pressuring has the power to fire the person he or she is pressuring, the power to kick the person he or she is pressuring out of the house, the power to take away the children of the person he or she is pressuring, the power to accuse the person he or she is pressuring of homosexuality in a homophobic community, etc.

    “and yes to me this whole ‘caving into sex thing’ its nonsense period ill never be convinced otherwise nor do I want to be”

    So you don’t want to gain any compassion for some of the people who do suffer IRL. What a jerk you are.

    “What I find it interesting is that people who don’t want to have sex with people choose people who want to have sex with them, you very rarely see people who with-hold sex dating other people who with-hold sex”

    I see them all the time, even if you don’t. Some couples don’t have sex on the first date, and keep dating for a while before deciding whether or not to start having sex with each other or break up. Duting that time, they are definitely “people who with-hold sex dating other people who with-hold sex”. Some of these couples get engaged and still save sex for marriage. During their engagements, they too are “people who with-hold sex dating other people who with-hold sex.”

    “many use with-hold as a weapon”

    Keeping your hands off someone is anything *but* a weapon. What do you think a weapon is?

    “Think your reading too deep into it lurker.”

    It’s not thinking too deeply, it’s just thinking logically with my brain about the real world instead of merely thinking with my hormones about nobody except myself.

    “But i do agree to a certain extent focusing inwards getting therapy etc is some of the keys to overcoming incel but factors such as luck, attractiveness, finding the correct partner etc are intangebles that cannot be controlled all you can do is keep trying and working at it”

    Good points here! :)

    “that has nothing to do with celibacy in any aspect”

    Not so good point here. Of course that has *something* to do with *at least one but not all* aspects of celibacy.

    “Again i disagree this what i don’t understand how is raping someone removing your incel?”

    If you rape someone then you are having sex with someone else against his or her will, therefore you are having sex, therefore you are not celibate, therefore you are not involuntarily celibate.

    “They have the complete power to turn down that pressure,”

    Not always (see above).

    “And i don’t trust them either relationships are a two way street if someone wont let me “near” them then i walk away…”

    …and start whining about them on the internet.

    “i couldn’t care less if their going through a “terrible personal plight” *yawns* ”

    You care enough to complain about how they’re leaving you celibate. You could care less than *that*.

    “IMO not really since the targeted person has the power.”

    Again, not always (see above).

    “If the person asked says no they have a responsibility to be clear with that no and stop any further asking”

    If the person whom you asked doesn’t clearly say yes, then you have the responsibility to back off.

    For an example, if someone didn’t clearly say no to sex with you and didn’t clearly say yes either because he or she was too asleep or too passed out to clearly say anything, then you still don’t have his or her consent and it would still be rape for you to go ahead and have sex with him or her (no matter how much you don’t want to wait until he or she wakes up).

    For another example, if someone clearly said yes to only oral and/or vaginal sex with you, then you still don’t have his or her consent to anal sex and it still would be rape for you to go ahead and shove it up his or her ass (not even if she gave birth to your children and so her vagina’s not as tight as before).

  32. Slowpoke says:

    Lots of wasted space in the comments section here. Some of you should start your own websites, for no one to read. Anyway. At age 30, I suffer from this. I also suffer from depression, which I find related to my brain tumor. I’m guessing the tumor came first. If I cared enough to alter my diet, I could get healthy, but I am well past that point. I just hoped to help someone out there. Your diet/environment affects everything in your life and everyone should clearly understand the affects. Even if you don’t suffer from a mental/physical health problem, you may need to mind the diet of your child or spouse. Sorry, if that’s a bit preachy, but I think it is very important.

  33. warren says:

    What I find funny are, these “incel researchers” like Ryan Galloway, and even moreso females, who have ZERO experience at living incel or TFL ot whatever you wanna call it. They clearly don’t live it themselves, but are content to give people who DO live it advice. They insist it’s “not a big deal,” yet, when you ask them to live it themselves and go the next 20 yrs plutonic, they look at you like a deer in headlights, because deep down, they know what it does to someone. It’s only “not a big deal” because the people they push this on, are considered less human, inferior, and less deserving of empathy.

    Does a fat person have any legitimacy giving advice to a starving ethiopian? Did the average German citizen have any legitimacy giving advice to a runaway jew during Nazi Germany? Does a rich man belong giving advice to or judging a homeless man? No, because they lack the experience.

  34. warren says:

    One more question though that comes to mind, if it’s “not a big deal,” then how come millions of people who ARE living it, disagree?

  35. lalala says:

    People complaining because they can’t have sex? Oh, good grief. Most of us won’t win the lottery or become millionaires either, but are we going complain about that? I’ve seen those so-called INCEL cites and most of them are pathetic, and chock full of self-pitying losers with a one track mind. I want to shake them and say INCELS, please, GET OVER YOURSELVES! Don’t you know there’s more to life and love than sex? That no one has ever died from being celibate (voluntary or otherwise?) FACT: Anyone can have an orgasm. In fact you can do it yourself, with or without “toys.” If a person really wants to get laid, they can do that…just not guaranteeing the quality of the lay. Go to freaking Craiglist and see that the adult columns are chock full of “opportunities”…opportunities for diseases, getting ripped off, getting hurt, etc. Bi thanks. Ok, so what’s my answer? I say…forget what you can’t have and think focus on what you do have that’s good in your life. Do you have family? friends? pets? a good job? Cherish them and be grateful. Those are more important and more enduring than any significant other. Are you lacking? Well, then DO something about it apart from complaining. If you are religious, explore your faith more deeply. Pray. Meditate. If not, then Get a pet, volunteer, embrace a cause, work harder for a promotion at work…DO SOMETHING, anything besides feeling sorry for yourself.

  36. Bristol Resident says:

    Wow lalala really does exemplify what someone said earlier…a condescending non-incel thinking she gas the right to dispense advice to “get over it” because it’s “not that bad”. I doubt she’s an incel or ever was. Terrible advice from lalala.

    Of course sex is important; if it wasn’t, we all wouldn’t be here, since celibate modes of reproduction (artificial insemination such as IUI, IVF, etc) weren’t available until fairly recently in the timeline of human evolution. So yeah it’s not a “requirement” for individual survival, but it IS for survival of a population as a whole. Thus, it is still a “need”. Our bodies signal to us the need to fulfill “needs” — such as food, sleep, staying warm, etc and yes sex — by making fulfillment of these needs feel good, and deprivation of these needs feel bad.

    I also disagree that there’s no adverse health effects of being incel. 1, depression and other emotional psych issues can arise. 2, studies show that sex burns significant calories, and that partners engaging un regular sex have better immune systems against major illnesses like flu, strep, etc! (however, they’re MORE prone to contracting small common colds though) 3, sex improves circulation and helps maintain healthy skin and tone…hence that giveaway “rosy glow” many people get after sex.

    Also, I disagree that celibacy avoids all STIs/STDs. Not all STIs are transmitted sexually 100% of the time. Many have multiple modes of transmission but are generally touted as “STDs” because sexual transmission is most common. STIs can sometimes (albeit not commonly) be spread by: hospital/dr offices, toilet seats, sharing towels or razor blades, IV needle sharing (tattoos, drugs, etc), less-than-perfect hygiene (let’s face it, if we know nobody is going to be seeing or handling our private bits, sometimes we are less diligent or we skip showers on occasion lol), etc. I actually have a “friend” who picked up an STI known as Garnerella (aka vaginosis) during a 1-yr sex drought. She’d been checked out by her on/gyn multiple times during that year, so she knew it wasn’t something from prior to her drought that had gone undetected. At her most recent ob/gym visit, the dr asked if she was sexually active and she was too embarrassed to admit she wasn’t (since she’d been putting on a front to people to save face), so she lied and said “yes”. Later when they sent her the antibiotic script for her STI, she was relieved that she’d lied, since she felt that she’d look like a real loser to have it revealed that she was incel with an STI (worst of both worlds).

  37. loser says:

    Ok so what have we learned here today people? That hornyness makes guys mean and nasty. or maybe they were mean and nasty to begin with and that’s why no one wants to fuck them. I’m currently going thru something similar so i can emphasize a little, because the truth is I’ve been back and fourth between misogyny and whatever the opposite is. But from the way the posters here have been treating others i have to conclude that for them it’s all about SEX and not intimacy and when they can’t get it they turn into spoilt brats. Disrespectful brats at that. You can call me a mangina of you want. as for me I’d be happy with intimacy, sex or both. I get as angry as these guys and even worse at times, but i understand that it’s not even close to being the solution. I don’t even think there is a solution.

    Finally the impression i got from reading the wiki article is that incels somehow subconsciously sabotage possible relationships. And it’s not a case of ‘someone won’t have sex with me’ so these guys don’t even count! They are just coming off as alpha male horn dogs who have lost their game. Note: there is no middle ground between mangina and misogynist.

  38. Waz says:

    I’m an incel. Not getting any can be really bad, people want to have sex, “loser” are you an incel? you didnt even mention if you would be happy without intimacy/sex and tbh your no different to the sexists you moan about, firstly incels are not brats or “alpha male horn dogs” they come in both male AND female flavors fyi.
    Secondly frustration is common amongst incels, its just that the pressure to get sex is more pushed on males. The pressure to look good is put more on females both very obvious. Sex is targeted at men and beauty at women.

    The irony is that men are more vocal about their frustrations than women that’s all it is, many women who are incels are very depressed and want sex! yes just sex no intimacy, they do talk about their frustrations but you don’t see it because your eyes are on men. Incel women are pretty much invisible victims due to the double standards of society.

    it can be a very depressing situation, very similar to not getting someone to date you have a relationship with you have kids with you, they aren’t biologically necessary in the logical sense but they are in the mental well-being sense its clear it affects alot of people generally negatively when they don’t get these things it doesn’t mean they are spoilt. Im sure most incels if they could shutdown their sexual wants they would gladly do so even at the expense of not getting laid.

    I used to feel trapped like a prisoner of my body i was upset that i wanted sex, because it couldn’t get it i wanted the desire to go away, i wasn’t angry at women, just angry that my biology made me want them sexually.

    The need to feel wanted comes in many ways Sex is a part of that biological need but its not absolutely imperative so if you cant get it you can control yourself and improve the situation by becoming active in your life doing things you would never do that are positive taking risks radically changing your life.

    Not everyone can get laid so its best to find out what else life has to offer this need can be filled with something else. Even people who never find love, companionship, or never have children can live happy lives but for many people these things are a necessity and no getting them can cause major depression distress.

    Im no expert but every incel is different the first stage is counseling in my opinion and taking a good look at how your life is.

    I found personally for me that by doing artwork exploring music sports travelling meeting new people and doing a variety of things i didnt do before, ive been able to control the pain my desires cause much better and not see it as an enemy though i can frustrate me to no end sometimes.

    Ive been an incel almost 10 years now through no choice of my own and i don’t see it changing but im very happy now if sex happens it happens, ill enjoy every minute of it, if there’s intimacy thats bonus but its not required personally for me to have a good time.

    There’s always a solution loser you just need to believe in yourself and work towards being happy i don’t see the point at barking at other incels who are venting their frustrations that high horse attitude gets us nowhere other than a quick ego boost I would rather have a coffee instead.

    and loser wiki is the not the greatest place to get info clearly what you read was very opinionated and not professional.

  39. SG says:

    I have a hypothesis that modern incels exist because of the unique western dating mechanism that has emerged over the past several decades. Up until the mid-1900s, dating and marriage were still overseen by parents and other family members to a large extent. For most of Western history, match making was done by parents and family members and arranged marriages were the norm. Over time, the boy and girl who are getting married have gained more and more say over who they choose to be with. But by the mid-1900s parents and family members stopped having any say at all. The decision was left entirely in the hands of the boy and girl. Parents stopped teaching dating etiquette and society stopped having any expectations at all. At the same time, in today’s society the boy and the girl can both support themselves economically while being independent of each other or any other family members or friends. So with no social ties, moral ties, or economic ties, the bond between a boy and a girl is a flimsy thing. It is a luxury, desired by some but not truly needed by any.

    I think a lot of the incels today are people who do not know how to thrive in this sytem, either because
    1) They have been taught the old archaic system and are at a loss of how to implement that system in today’s culture
    2) They do not have the social skills to navigate this new system without support from family, friends, or society
    3) They desire intimacy that they cannot find in this new system
    4) They are afraid of entering into a “flimsy” relationship and then having it evaporate without the anchors of family and society

    • Linda says:

      Exactly!

      “For most of Western history, match making was done by parents and family members and arranged marriages were the norm. ”

      That’s still the case in some other cultures too. It made getting away with *rape* a lot easier, since marrying someone against his or her will and then having sex with that person against his or her will was legal and encouraged by the authorities.

      :”The decision was left entirely in the hands of the boy and girl.”

      …in other words, the decision of whether or not to marry and have sex was left entirely in the hands of the people who would be getting married and having the sex. Good!

      I’m a 34-year-old virgin, I feel frustrated about it sometimes, and I’m still much better off than I would have been if I was married off and raped at 16! Not having sex when you want to have sex is tough.

      Having sex when you don’t want to have sex is a million times more painful and can even be deadly (think of all the rape victims who got AIDS from their rapists, and of all the rape victims who died giving birth to their rapists’ children after they weren’t allowed to get abortions…).

      “Even Maslow knew that for humans, sex is a physiological need. ”

      According to Maslow who lumped together sex and food, raping someone when nobody consents to sex with you is as justified as stealing bread when you’re starving. IRL that’s not true!

      “Because one of the posters above hit the nail on the head – casual sex for women is as much a safety issue as anything else. How many men actually worry that some gal you pick up might take you home to rape and murder you? It only adds to the anxiety.”

      That’s a very good point!

      It’s a very good point no matter how many of the guys we don’t have casual sex with, because we fear for our safety, accuse us of forcing them to be celibate!

  40. anon says:

    awful awful awful… those that aren’t “getting any” are a group of people sure. but let’s not encourage the idea that it is a homogenous group of nasty unattractive people, who are desperate for sex.

  41. Female Incel says:

    ILWN, you hit the nail on the head.

    Being Incel is a living hell. It is not just sex people. People who have a sex life of their choosing dismiss so easily. What it comes down to is being forced to live a life you never wanted, and basically being told my social behavior that it can never be changed. Even Maslow knew that for humans, sex is a physiological need. And there is a huge segment of the population that can never have that need fulfilled. We are social animals. We also need hope to survive. Incels have neither. The effects are devastating.

    People have no idea how utterly damaging this is. Marginalizing isn’t the half of it. And the condescension from those who have never experienced it does nothing but increase the shame and anxiety you feel. It’s a vicious cycle of being less than that is nearly impossible to break.

    The social pressure on male Incels must be overwhelming. I know many don’t believe that female Incels exist, but they are wrong. We do. That attitude just adds to the stereotype that got us here in the first place. Because one of the posters above hit the nail on the head – casual sex for women is as much a safety issue as anything else. How many men actually worry that some gal you pick up might take you home to rape and murder you? It only adds to the anxiety.

    There are lots of high and mighty folks condescending here, but the bottom line is this: are you determining the course of your own sex life? If you chose virginity, great.

    I’ve had one sex partner is 43 years. One. I do not choose this. People who have never experienced this don’t understand because it is unimaginable. I never imagined this for myself.

    At some point, I know I will not be able to continue on like this. There really is not point in living without love and intimacy. It will be the hopelessness that does me in. And no, I am not like this because I am depressed, I am depressed because my life is like this.

    • Linda says:

      Sorry I posted this reply in the wrong place!

      “Even Maslow knew that for humans, sex is a physiological need. ”

      According to Maslow who lumped together sex and food, raping someone when nobody consents to sex with you is as justified as stealing bread when you’re starving. IRL that’s not true!

      “Because one of the posters above hit the nail on the head – casual sex for women is as much a safety issue as anything else. How many men actually worry that some gal you pick up might take you home to rape and murder you? It only adds to the anxiety.”

      That’s a very good point!

      It’s a very good point no matter how many of the guys we don’t have casual sex with, because we fear for our safety, accuse us of forcing them to be celibate!

  42. lurker says:

    As for the Assange case, check these out:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2011/02/assange-eaw-sexual-sweden

    “…There can be no doubt that these allegations are serious: far more serious than they have been represented by many internet commentators. The EAW for the arrest of Assange sets out the allegations:

    “Unlawful coercion

    “On 13-14 August 2010, in home of the injured party [A] in Stockholm, Assange, by using violence, forced the injured party to endure his restricting her freedom of movement. The violence consisted in a firm hold of the injured party’s arms and a forceful spreading of her legs while lying on top of her and with his body weight preventing her from moving or shifting.

    “Sexual molestation (1)

    “On 13-14 August 2010, in home of the injured party [A] in Stockholm, Assange deliberately molested the injured party by acting in a manner designed to violate her sexual integrity. Assange, who was aware that it was the expressed wish of the injured party and a prerequisite of sexual intercourse that a condom be used, consummated sexual intercourse with her [without a condom] without her knowledge.

    “Sexual molestation (2)

    “On 18 August 2010 or on any of the days before or after that date, in the home of the injured party [A] in Stockholm, Assange deliberately molested the injured party by acting in a manner designed to violate her sexual integrity; that is, lying next to her and pressing his naked, erect penis to her body.

    “Rape

    “On 17 August 2010, in the home of the injured party [B], Assange deliberately consummated sexual intercourse with her by improperly exploiting that she, due to sleep, was in a helpless state. It is an aggravating circumstance that Assange, who was aware that it was the expressed wish of the injured party and a prerequisite of sexual intercourse that a condom be used, still consummated unprotected sexual intercourse with her. The sexual act was designed to violate the injured party’s integrity.

    “It is crucial to note that these are allegations. There have been no charges. There certainly has been no documentary or oral evidence published to support these allegations, and nor have these allegations been tested by cross-examination. Assange must be presumed innocent until proven guilty. However, the presumption of innocence does not mean such serious allegations should never be answered…”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-sweden

    “…According to the statement, Miss A then realised he was trying to have unprotected sex with her. She told police that she had tried a number of times to reach for a condom but Assange had stopped her by holding her arms and pinning her legs. The statement records Miss A describing how Assange then released her arms and agreed to use a condom, but she told the police that at some stage Assange had ‘done something’ with the condom that resulted in it becoming ripped, and ejaculated without withdrawing…

    “…Miss W told police that though they started to have sex, Assange had not wanted to wear a condom, and she had moved away because she had not wanted unprotected sex. Assange had then lost interest, she said, and fallen asleep. However, during the night, they had both woken up and had sex at least once when ‘he agreed unwillingly to use a condom’.

    “Early the next morning, Miss W told police, she had gone to buy breakfast before getting back into bed and falling asleep beside Assange. She had awoken to find him having sex with her, she said, but when she asked whether he was wearing a condom he said no…”

    http://www.metafilter.com/98280/Julian-Assange-Turns-Himself-In#3407515

    “‘But others say Assange, who denies any wrongdoing and says the sex was consensual, may have just run afoul of Sweden’s unusual rape laws, which are considered pro-feminist because of the consideration given issues of consent when it comes to sexual activity — including even the issue of whether a condom was used. [...]The New York Times today quoted accounts given by the women to police and friends as saying Assange “did not comply with her appeals to stop when (the condom) was no longer in use.”‘

    [major sarcasm starts here] “Oh, issues of consent! Those crazy Swedes! Why should anyone care about that! What bizarre laws that consider sex without consent to be rape! The poor guy!”

    posted by shakespeherian at 8:04 AM on December 7, 2010

    http://www.metafilter.com/98280/Julian-Assange-Turns-Himself-In#3407689

    “Sad and fascinating how this issue inevitably becomes a referendum on peoples’ thoughts about Assange’s heroism or villainy. I don’t find it particularly implausible that he did the things he’s being charged with, and that they’re being prosecuted far more aggressively because of the ‘war on WikiLeaks.’

    “Sweden’s laws about consent are definitely more rigorous than the US’; the charges, though, as they’re presented right now, seem pretty straightforward. A woman had consensual sex with Assange on the condition that he wear a condom, the condom broke, and he didn’t stop when she asked. According to accounts, she didn’t report the issue but when she later talked to another woman who had the same thing happen, she decided it was a pattern and reported it as non-consensual sex. i.e., rape.

    “Whether the accounts are true or not is for the courts to decide. Whether or not the case would have been prosecuted so aggressively had he been some schlub visiting Sweden from abroad is pretty obvious. But after the initial round of ‘Well, THAT’S convenient…’ we all had a few months ago, it seems that there’s no need to spin up tales of CIA schemes or dirty government tricks for the underlying accusations. They’re true or not true, and given the participants it’s not unbelievable.

    “What’s troubling, though, again, is how the true/false nature of the charges against him in Sweden are turned into a place to play out the ‘WikiLeaks: Good Or Bad?’ argument over and over. It’s inevitable, I suppose, but I liked to think better of MetaFilter.”

    posted by verb at 8:50 AM on December 7, 2010

    http://www.metafilter.com/98280/Julian-Assange-Turns-Himself-In#3407889

    “These are two separate issues:

    “1) Sweden’s laws are more comprehensive about determining that both parties consent to sex than the laws in many other places.

    “2) Assante is a political target. It is possible that he is being prosecuted on scant or fabricated evidence because of this.

    “Attacking Issue #1 out of concern regarding Issue #2 is a really suboptimal argument. The noxious point we’re getting here is ‘this person I support is being faced with possibly spurious charges, therefore laws that respect women totally suck.’ If you think the charges are false, then the problem is that you think the charges are false not that having non-consensual sex shouldn’t be seen as a bad thing.”

    posted by Karmakaze at 9:52 AM on December 7, 2010

    http://www.metafilter.com/98280/Julian-Assange-Turns-Himself-In#3409628

    “There’s a Guardian article [http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/07/rape-claims-julian-assange?INTCMP=SRCH] on the blogosphere attacks against the accusers here which describes the case slightly differently:

    “‘The story appears to proceed as follows: Miss A, having invited Assange to speak to a leftwing campaign group in the town of Enkoping, suggested he stay in her flat, although the two had not met. Both agree that they slept together on the night before the event, during which the condom split.

    “‘The following day, the woman attended and helped facilitate the event, at which Miss W was also present. According to her police interview, Miss W accompanied the Australian and some male guests to lunch at which he flirted with her; afterwards the pair went to the cinema, where she told police she had performed oral sex on him. They slept together that night, using a condom, and again the following morning, when both parties appear to agree that a condom was not used, after which Assange left.

    “‘What happened next will be the subject of any legal process, but according to her testimony Miss W, for some reason, got in touch with Miss A (they did not previously know each other); some days later the two went to a Stockholm police station where they said they were ‘seeking advice’ on making a complaint against Assange. Miss A is understood to have told police that he had ripped the condom on purpose, while Miss W said the unprotected sex act had been without her consent. They were reportedly advised by the police officer that these allegations amounted to rape against Miss W and sexual molestation against Miss A.’

    “Not that I’m an expert on Swedish law or anything, but this account of what the accusations actually were seems to make a lot more sense, in context of Assange actually getting charged with a crime, than the rumours about Sweden having some kind of definition of ‘rape’ as ‘consensual sex that one party later sort of regretted’.”

    posted by Catseye at 4:05 AM on December 8, 2010

    http://www.metafilter.com/98280/Julian-Assange-Turns-Himself-In#3418307

    “PS – for whatever it’s worth, the Washington Post makes the point that the Swedish Law is a consent-based model (as opposed to American coercion-based models), and that the charges are based on:

    “1) withdrawal of consent during the act
    “2) lack of consent as the alleged victim was sleeping.

    “As Assange seems to have been mostly based in Melbourne, it’s worth noting that Victorian Law is simillarly consent-based:

    “Crimes Act 1958 s38.(2): A person commits rape if-

    “(a) he or she intentionally sexually penetrates another person without that person’s consent-

    “(i) while being aware that the person is not consenting or might not be consenting; or

    “(ii) while not giving any thought to whether the person is not consenting or might not be consenting; or

    “(b) after sexual penetration he or she does not withdraw from a person who is not consenting on becoming aware that the person is not consenting or might not be consenting.”

    posted by UbuRoivas at 3:33 PM on December 13, 2010

    http://www.metafilter.com/98280/Julian-Assange-Turns-Himself-In#3408218

    “The contrast between Naomi Wolf’s essay about her own experiences with sexual assault [http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/features/n_9932/] and her writings on the Assange case [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/interpol-the-worlds-datin_b_793033.html] seem a bit off-putting, perhaps even hypocritical. There are ways to express skepticism about the circumstances without dismissing issues of consent as ‘the dating police.’”

    posted by verb at 12:04 PM on December 7, 2010

  43. Linda says:

    “but the bottom line is this: are you determining the course of your own sex life?”

    Nope, that’s not the bottom line. There’s another line further down: having sex with someone against his or her will is raping that someone.

    If you go have sex with someone else, it *shouldn’t* be just your choice. It should be your choice *and* his or her choice.

Speak Your Mind

*

Switch to our mobile site